Episode 189 with Jessica Carew Kraft
Unleashed from the Tethers of Domestication
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189 JESSICA KRAFT
Ginny Yurich Okay. Are you ready? Yeah. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Yurich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I just read a new book called Why We Need to Be Wild by Jessica Carew Kraft. So excited to have her here today, The author. Welcome.
Jessica Carew Kraft Thank you so much. I am delighted to be talking to you today. And thanks for reading the book.
Ginny Yurich Yes, it's it's a beautiful and I love that the fox is sitting on the cover. And then you talk about the facts throughout the book. So it's just such a beautiful one, Why we need to be wild. And you have really made this huge life change. I think it's one of the things that a lot of us think about, which is pulling away from the screens, pulling away from the technology, going back to these things that seem more primitive but really are helpful for our whole being. We think about it, but you actually did it and have made just some substantial changes. So do you ever look back? Do you ever regret any of it, or do you feel like pretty settled in this new way of living?
Jessica Carew Kraft Oh, absolutely. Yeah. No, I mean, I would also call this this fog. It's sort of like a veiled midlife crisis book, right? Like memoir, Eat, Pray, Love, Woman goes out to find herself, and in the end, you know, kind of redeems herself and finds a new community. But no, I mean, I was just so deeply called to be more immersed in nature and to learn all sorts of new skills. And I actually think it is only enhanced my life because the truth is, it's like I haven't given up everything right. I haven't left civilization the way that some of the people in the book that I depict have done right. They're kind of living with mostly Paleolithic, what we might call Stone Age skills, right? They've they've given up the coffee shops, the jobs, the cars, and they are making it on the land, almost sort of modern day hunter gatherers. I haven't fully done that, you know, I've done for days at a time. It's certainly a part of my lifestyle is to absolutely get out of in a in a very basic way into nature every single day, spend hours out there. That's my kind of personal commitment to spend at least an hour out in a natural open space. But I'm still very much embedded in the modern world, you know, with computers and cell phones. And I have children who go to institutional schools. And so the whole thing is sort of like a dualism now where I've got this sort of wild backdrop and I have a lifestyle I can always, you know, escape it. But for the time being, while I'm raising kids, it's just it's just been too hard to kind of do that on my own. And they didn't want to, you know, like children. They you know, they see what's available in the world. And well, both my kids are able to identify all sorts of plants and they can track some animals and they have some basic survival skills, which, you know, we worked really hard to to give them that foundation. They also they love being on Instagram, They love watching movies. They you know, so the we're in two worlds.
Ginny Yurich But I do love that, though, because it just it's accessible. So it's like we don't have to be the the modern hunter gatherer, right. To find these experiences that help us feel more human. It can be in small spurts and you have done some really cool things that lasted maybe a weekend or a week and taken that and been able to infuse air into your own everyday life. And so I think that's super encouraging. So tell us where this all started with you.
Jessica Carew Kraft Yeah, well, I would say I wasn't a kid who grew up camping or had any outdoor skills. I wasn't exposed to Girl Scouts, but my family did make it a priority to get us into nature through this. The system of local metroparks around Columbus, Ohio, where I grew up. So I was always, you know, my parents encouraged me. You know, it is important to to get out and have a relationship with nature. It just wasn't that deep of a relationship. And I was always encouraged to, you know, kind of books are where it's at and studying and going to college and, you know, academic achievement. So I would say, you know, I was always I was always kind of driven on a professional level. And I was a journalist for many years. I had a background in anthropology after I had children and I was living in San Francisco because my ex-husband had a job there. And we were just like, What are we going to do? Right? Most expensive, most difficult housing market in the country? And we were just not able to make it right. But we had to stay there because of his job. And I was like, okay, I'll do it. I'll go work in tech, I'll use my skills and I will, you know, find a way to bring in more income so that we can have an affordable way to live. So I did and I dove in headfirst and I was very lucky to be hired with the skills I had. And I was producing content and blogs and updates for all sorts of startup companies and training CEOs about how to speak to the media. Talking to venture capitalists, I was really embedded in this sort of, you know, we could change the world with tech and everything that we're going to, you know. Humanity's problems can be solved through some application of AI or machine learning or tech. And listen to that message. I sort of was drawn in for a little while and I was like, okay, cool. Let's see where this goes. You know, it is much easier. You are more connected. I can have any information I want with a couple of taps on the phone. I can get food delivered, I can write around the city. And there was this sort of expectation that like, yes, tech is going to deliver us to this utopia. And after a couple years listening to those messages, I was just like, What? Where's all this awesome stuff? Where's the sense of well-being and the supportive community and the fantastic help? I was looking around and it was like, everybody is overwhelmed. They're stressed out. They have way too many responsibilities. They spend too much time inside, you know, like up to 95% of their time. And it was just like, whoa. The promises of Silicon Valley tech are really not bearing out. And what I'm seeing is like an increasing disease stress, uncomfortable, you know, disconnected society. And so I just had a series of epiphany moments, which I talk about in the book where I was like, Whoa, this is not okay. And it's definitely not okay for me. I got to get out of this world. So it's sort of like I imagined myself as like a domesticated horse inside a horse corral. And off in the distance I could see these wild horses galloping and playing. And I was like, Oh, that's me. I got to get out there. So quit the tech job.
Ginny Yurich Which is really brave. I mean, you say it in one breath, right? I quit the tech job. Yeah, but that's a really big decision. And some of the things that you said in the book, I just thought it was worded so well. You said if using tech, working in tech and promoting tech just lead to more tech equals more stress, what's the point? And even this phrase of techno optimism. It's such an interesting thing that you bring up. It's like we really do look at our technologies with rosy glasses and don't tend to look at what they say. Like this promise versus peril is what I've heard. But what is the downside? And I think because we're on the you know, the train is rolling forward and we're on it, we don't stop to think like, do I actually feel better? Do I actually feel like I have more time? Do I actually feel more connected? And so I think that the way that you were that such a big deal. So. Okay, So then you quit. Yeah, that's a really big deal.
Jessica Carew Kraft Thank you. Yeah, I guess it took some courage, but it was also just sort of like, I can't not do this. I just feel so sick inside the office and know where you were. Just sort of reminded me of this funny moment that I wasn't able to include in the book. But I remember there was one day I picked up my girls from school, and outside of there we were at an elementary school and there was a middle school next to us. The middle school had just let out and I watched as all the kids streamed out of the middle school, picked up their phones. Right. And many of them went and sat on benches just staring at their phones. They were talking to each other and playing games. Right at that exact moment, I looked up in the sky and I saw who was it? It was like a hawk and two crows. They were angrily duking it out in the sky. Right? And I was like, Oh my God, they're the real Angry Birds. And these kids are missing that entirely because they're playing Angry Birds on their phone. And then that's kind of dating the episode several years ago. But just this idea that, like the real thing still exists in our world. We are just completely immersed in these fabrications, these imitations and things that are taking us away from our human nature, which is, you know, to observe. Being connection, being relationship, use all of our senses. So anyway, yeah, in the tech job, I realized something I have to do. I have to get training in nature skills because as I said, that was that was like feeling spiritually drawn towards it, like noticing all these things like we are we're so disconnected, we're separated, and then at the same time listening to all sorts of health advocates who are saying, like, the closer you can get to a paleo lifestyle, the better your quality of life. And it wasn't just, you know, eating the diet of our ancient ancestors or maybe wearing footwear that kind of replicates how they walk on the earth. But it was like an entire lifestyle. How do we completely shift how we're living so that it is fully integrated and you get all of the benefits and you're also kind of redeeming your evolutionary heritage as a Homo sapiens mate, because we're really we're really not living as we evolved to live. So I knew I needed to get training and the first thing I did was to become a certified naturalists in California, has a program where you can take this ten week course and learn all about the local flora and fauna and some of the indigenous traditions of your area. And I did that. It just opened up a whole new world, right? It was no longer like the wall of green that you encounter on a hike. Like what are all these plants one of. All these trees. It was like, Oh, I know these people. These people out in the woods, like, I recognize them. They're I'm getting a relationship with them and learning about which ones are edible and which ones can be used for different crafts. Wow. So I embarked on this like four year training process, and it also involved not just the naturalist course, but primitive skills gatherings, studying with indigenous artisans, traveling around the country, visiting folks who are living, you know, pretty much 100% in nature, sourcing all of their supplies and gear and food from nature in America. That's happening in the West. So cool. There are many people all over the country and also other countries Israel, Northern Europe, South America. People are drawn to learn this stuff.
Ginny Yurich Mm hmm. Wow. What a big change. So you're going from working with these CEOs and these startups, and now you're spending time with people who are living off the land. It's so interesting. So tell us about the naturalist program, because I would think that to make a change until especially, like you say, like if you didn't grow up with it and I would say I don't have good knowledge of the flora and fauna too much, you know, not super in-depth knowledge. You would think that it would take like forever to learn. You know, you look at these people who grow up and and they know all the animal tracks and they know all that. And obviously nature is great because you can't ever learn all of it. There's always more to learn. But but ten weeks, I mean, that's a long time. But it's also not that long of a time, two and a half months. What was that naturalist program like?
Jessica Carew Kraft Yeah, well, I wouldn't say right. It's like if we kind of compare ourselves to ancient humans or indigenous folks who are still living on the land. Right? It is. It's years and years and immersion since childhood and watching your elders use the plants and identify them. Right. So I kind of I'm kind of like, yeah, I'm always going to be like a baby. Wilder I'm always kind of knowledge that I have, but you have to start somewhere and you really can learn a lot. And yeah, so that course is set up to take you through. It's really well structured and it's like, let's start with geology, let's understand the rocks and the soil and then let's move into the botany and the plant, the, you know, the most common plants that you're going to encounter. And then you can always go deeper in any of those areas. And then let's learn about the wildlife. And it's sort of divided taxonomic lives. So you're learning different families of animal groups, right? So like the the herbs, the snakes, the frogs, the invertebrates, the insects you're learning. Of course, the mammals are the most compelling to us humans because we so much identify with them. And they're, you know, they're these charismatic creatures, the coyote, the bear, the mountain lion, even the squirrel and the rabbit. So we're learning about that. We're having guest speakers. And then the most important part of any naturalist education, of course, are the field trips and the immersion in the outdoors. So we would have these for our excursions kind of every other weekend. And super lucky in California to be able to have these wild natural spaces that have been protected by conservationists over the last several decades. So going out and, you know, just learning to identify, look under rocks, here's a salamander. Let's take a sample of stream water and see what invertebrates are in it. Oh, finding newts, all sorts of, you know, just like no wonder that we have in nature when we're just like, what? I had no idea this existed, like my understanding of animal behaviors from cartoons. And so to actually be able to observe it and to find the tracks of the nest that it's built, like it's for me, it was a huge wow. And it has never stopped, right? Like, I feel like I can always go outside and find a tiny little bit of drama like, Oh, here's an inchworm on a leaf about to be attacked by a spider. I think the nature is full of these stories, and if we just look up from the bones, you'll see that the birds fighting in the sky and then you'll also see the harmonious relations and how, you know, like like in is an algae combined with a plant and they're symbiotically working together to create this very weird organism that all over the woods. Right. And which, which can also be used to benefit human health with various medicines. So just it was a wonderful training in the complexity, the relationships and the observation skills. And I think a lot of states do have these programs now.
Ginny Yurich That's what I'm curious about. I mean, what a neat thing. What a neat thing to offer. And I you wonder I mean, I've never heard of that in my area. So it's definitely spurred on for me to look in, to see what's out there. My friend, I have a friend who a dear friend of mine who went last night on a herb walk and I couldn't go. I wished I could have gone. But even does that kind of thing, like if you start looking for it, then you start to see the opportunities that are out there. And you can learn a lot, whether it's a ten week course or I know you've done some different weekend things too, it does remind you that there's really fun things to learn out there and people are teaching the staff, even if. I mean, because I would imagine that for you, like when you were in the middle of your tech job, there's no thought toward. I wonder if there's a naturalist program in my area or is there a survival skills camp I could go to? But those things do exist. And sometimes you can take your kids and you can take your family. So that's really a cool start. Ten weeks or so, you are a certified naturalist. That's fantastic. Yeah, but only thing are you. You should be so proud.
Jessica Carew Kraft Oh, I think.
Ginny Yurich There's probably hardly any certified naturalist. Okay, so let's talk about the wild skills. Yeah, because you talk in this book a lot about the wild skills. And definitely I would say that most people feel that they are irrelevant. Why would you need to tan a hide? Why would you need to learn how to forage? So can we just start with some of the benefits of it? Like, tell us why they're relevant.
Jessica Carew Kraft Sure. Yeah. Well, I think that yeah, of course, when we are in these modern systems and urban societies and cities, like, we can get everything we need manufactured for us or provide it as a service. And, you know, that's, that's a lifestyle, but it's all dependent on all those together. And we got a little taste of what it's like when those systems collapse during the pandemic. Right. And it's sort of like, Oh, shoot, how am I okay. And none of this stuff is at the grocery store. I don't know. So I think that many people in homesteading and make their own things and possibly foraging and going out and getting a need because of that little experience with our systems going down. So that's one reason that you might want to, you know, invest the time to learn this stuff. But then also because so many people do have emergency situations. So there is like there's a huge industry of survival skills, people teaching it so that, okay, your car breaks down and there's not help coming until the next morning. What are you going to do? Or, God forbid, some sort of plane crash situation or boat emergency like these things do happen and a lot of folks and you don't have to be like a crazy prepper to think about it this way. But a lot of folks like to have that baseline of I will know what to do. I won't be scared, my family will be fine. And so that's another reason to get into learning this stuff. And so, all right, I'll be able to make a fire even if I forgot to put matches in my emergency kit because I know the relevant species here where I can make a fire. Your kid and I've got the skill down where I can twist the bow. It's called a boat drill. And you take a spindle and you twist it with the bow against another board and you create a cold Then you could use to light a fire. So knowing these things for basically because we're not separated any time, because there may be an emergency, but then also the deeper level of what I mean if we are humans evolved to do these things right for over 300,000 years, our particular species, Homo sapiens, and remember, the man would know how to find food, how to shelter, how to stay warm, how to find water. So those basic force skills are something that every human up until who knows? I guess for some of us it would be two years ago. For some of us, 10,000 years ago, our ancestors knew how to do that. And so when I think about it, in that sort of more spiritual and ancestral way, I think, who am I to completely abandon these things that make us human? So I found deeper connection to the materials in the natural world around you. You have a relationship with them. You know what they smell like, what they taste like, how they feel, how you can work with them and doing that. You know, that's physical activity. It's working with their hands. I know you've had several guests who talk about like importance of that mental process of like the what was it called? It's like the reward.
Ginny Yurich Driven reward cycle. Yeah. Where we know working with your hands in it, then your brain releases dopamine.
Jessica Carew Kraft Exactly.
Ginny Yurich And so many of us are not working with our hands, right? We're just typing on computers and we're feeling things that are not natural.
Jessica Carew Kraft And side note, we have really lost a lot of strength. Like there are images of people taking measurements of like your hand grip strength. And they found in a study that over the past 30 years it's reduced by like some incredible percent because we aren't using our hands in the way that we used to. And they're actually as a species. And, you know, there's all sorts of things like that.
Ginny Yurich Yeah, I think that's super interesting because I had heard that your hand grip strength is somehow related to your longevity.
Jessica Carew Kraft Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. And it's it is absolutely decreasing, which is unfortunate. But there are things we can do to get it back. And I think by learning these skills and by kind of having more of that self-sufficient attitude, we do become healthier and we become more robust and we're kind of making up for all that lost time sitting on the couch.
Ginny Yurich Yeah, So there's a lot of thought there, which is. Okay. You could be learning it for survival situation, but maybe you wouldn't ever need to be in a survival situation. However, it is still enhancing the quality of your life by moving back to these wild skills and trying to reincorporate them into your life. I liked you wrote. You wrote. We have lost the conception of those skills and what they can do for us. And they do do so much for us. You're talking about how when we do crafts, it's building or craft, Probably not crafts, but like learning a craft. Yeah. Builds concentration, ingenuity, character. And if I love this requires more than simple instructions for assembly. So you're learning complex things. I think so many of things we do like if you buy, you know, a cabinet from IKEA, that's really simple to put together. But if you weave a basket, there's probably all sorts of different ways that you can weave it and different shapes that you could do, and it's so much more complex. So I loved when you talked about weaving. Maybe you could talk about that a little bit as one of the specific skills, but you talked about how as soon as you started to weave, then you would notice other baskets and you said, like all the baskets that we see are made by someone, it's too complicated for a machine. And so you are noticing all the different methods of twist. So that's kind of a fun one that maybe people could start there. I mean, anyone could use a basket.
Jessica Carew Kraft Absolutely. And I'm so glad you mention the word fun because that's what I forgot to talk about, which is that it is so much fun to create this stuff, to find the raw materials for it to spend the time to kind of slow down your life and then create and spend that time creating and then have at the end this thing that you made totally from scratch. You know, when people say from scratch, it's like, okay, about these things at the store to assemble them. Really, that's that's what it means in our contemporary society. But when you're making something as a wild skill, like you are getting it from the earth and you're transforming it, you're adding your own artistry and creativity to it. So yeah, it's super fun. And there's there's so much to that idea of like harvesting and going out and collecting because then you become an agent in nature or you become a steward. And so you are the one who is selecting, you know, whether you're let's see, or weaving a basket out of cattails. Yeah, right. You're going out and you're saying, okay, maybe this area needs to be thinned, maybe there are too many cattails and it's crowding out areas for the ducks to to live. Huh. So I'm going to harvest this and it's going to create something useful for me, but it's also going to create something useful for the ecosystem. And there's a lot of thought in, in this primitive skills world about using invasive species for these projects and for all of these things, you know, whether they're to eat or to use in crafts, etc., by thinning out those areas that have been completely overgrown by various invasives. And I'm thinking about Himalayan BlackBerry, which is basically taking over the entire West Coast. But to be able to use that to then make something useful. And if we could all get in the habit of going out and harvesting that BlackBerry wear leather gloves, kind of prickly. But this idea that we we can then have a positive impact on the environment rather than the destructive one that we're kind of accustomed to humans having these days because of our extractive industrial methods. By wild crafting, you can really have that that positive impact.
Ginny Yurich Yeah, you had a story in there about someone and there was like the Ivy was growing. Yes. And it was like, Well, we're going to come in and we're going to kill it with some pesticides. And the wisdom is like, well, no, use the stuff. Figure out how you can use it, but do it in a gentler way and notice it. Cattails is really interesting because cattails I found, it's really hard to get to them. Like you're kind of going through like a.
Jessica Carew Kraft Bog or.
Ginny Yurich You know, they're always back into the water. So what a cool thing. Like you wouldn't have such a full body experience to make a basket out of cattails because you'd have to go get them. And then you could do these different weaving methods of all of these wild scale. So you're talking about fire building. In the book, you talk about foraging, digging roots. I love that when you said the wildest meal I'd ever made and I felt rich, it's so cool. So the foraging, the heightening, making tools, weaving, which of these is like a top favorite for you?
Jessica Carew Kraft Yeah, I would say I have become basically addicted to foraging and it's something that I'm doing. I'm going out and I'm doing it almost every day. I try to eat something wild every day. What's amazing about it is that I think it is a skill everyone can pick up. If you can learn to identify a couple of those nutritious yet invasive weeds in your neighborhood where people haven't sprayed and you can collect them, add them to your salads, add them to your soups. There's just there's so many benefits because you're saving money on buying grains. And then the fact that these are wild foods that you've collected means that they haven't been altered by generations of human genetic. And I'm not talking about GMOs, I'm just talking about how we groom plants to be more flavorful. And by doing that, sometimes we rip out the nutrition that was once part of these plants. So by by domesticating them, we're kind of making them, you know, like, what would you say? They're just they're less powerful in our in our systems. They have less nutrition. So there's been studies done that said that if you can find the wild dandelions and wild mustard, all sorts of other edibles in whatever area you're living in, those are going to have more nutrition than the greens you buy in the grocery store. Plus, you're doing that favor to nature and pulling out the stuff that is already very abundant, has no problem reproducing, and you're using it for a good purpose.
Ginny Yurich So I must wonder if it just helps with your overall eating habits, because we did have the experience where we went to a wedding and it was a farm to table dinner, which is so idyllic, don't you think? Like, oh, a farm to table. Everyone talks about it totally, but it wasn't I don't want to say it wasn't very good because that's not the right word, but it wasn't quite as well. Think it was an addictive gift. Yeah, I don't I don't really know how to put it into words. It's almost like I left feeling like maybe this is why we overeat because it was a little bit more bland. Yeah, I hope the person I hope I don't quite know what to say. Maybe I should cut this part out. My point is, is that like we we manipulate our food so much, I guess is my point. Right? And so that maybe we've lost our taste for some of these simpler, more natural things, I guess is is sort of where I'm going with it. And I think we'd be healthier if we had an affinity for more of these natural things.
Jessica Carew Kraft I think you are so right. Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head. There is also studies that have shown that we've lost a lot of yeah, we've lost these tastes that we used to kind of crave or know that were good for us. Things like bitters. So bitters have a really good function in your digestive system. And they can also kind of trigger that cascade of hormones that. Right. You don't overeat because you're like, okay, this food was bitter, I'm going to stop. But I know the nutrition and it was good for me. So a lot of the ways that you'll collect do have that element of bitterness. They have a spiciness, they have strong tastes and. Right. We've groomed those out of our diet basically because we prefer the salt, the fat, the sugar, and you won't find those things so abundant in nature. So yeah, it's definitely all tied with nutrition, fitness, health. And then by going out and collecting this, you're also getting activity, you're getting sunshine. Yeah, you're getting that experience of being outdoors. So, you know, to me, I've always hated grocery shopping. I don't enjoy the fluorescent lights, the music, the fact that there's so much choice and it's sort of like an embarrassment. It's like, Oh my God, not every place in the world has this much abundant food prepackaged for us. And when you think about it, it's like half the stuff you're buying will eventually be trash cans, all the packaging. So for me, I just yeah, I just really relish the fact that I can go out there and find at least some food, maybe a meal a day that has nothing to do with any of that. And it's also hopefully benefiting the environment. And there are rules. There's there's rules to foraging, right? Like you have to learn how to do it properly. You don't want to take everything of some desirable food because you got to leave it for the wildlife and you have to let it reproduce. So there's ethics to it. But I would encourage people, if it sounds interesting, you know, just learn a couple edible plants in your neighborhood. It's a really fun to teach your kids to do that. My daughter has gotten so accustomed to eating wild food, we're out on a hike that I won't even bring food anymore because I know she's going to find berries. She's going to dig things up. Now she's gone and like even researched other plants that I didn't know about. And she's like, Mom, this soap route here, like the native people of the region, they used to use it like onions. She went and dug it out and she cooked it up for us. So we were like, Wow, this is awesome. So kids can get super into foraging and you just have to tell them the rules, you know, because some plants can harm you. You got to know what you're doing. Always check with mom before you pick something. Don't just put it into your mouth. But once you learn those, I think it's a whole new world to explore. And it's a it's a total new thing to get out of the outside.
Ginny Yurich Wow. I mean, that definitely sounds enticing. I can see why that would be your top favorite of some of these different skills. You know, it's one of those things that it adds like the element of surprise, too. So in a way, I'm not good at foraging, but we definitely like the mulberries. Yeah. Which are in season right now. And like every once in a while you'll find, I don't know, there's that song that's like, Here we go round the mulberry bush, but they kind of look like a tree, so I'm not quite sure if it's a tree or a bush. I don't even maybe they're not even mulberries. But anyway, they terms like this dark purple, black, and they're delicious. And we have one just in the neighborhood across the street that's kind of just on the side of someone's property. No one's really out there eating them. And so, like, we'll take a walk by and grab a couple. And it's exciting because, like, if you find it, like we've been different places where you're out in a walk or you're somewhere new and you find that and you're so excited. So it does add in that element of novelty. Like Katie Bowman talked about stacked up like she talks about like, like, let's take one activity and can that one activity, can it satisfy? Like you're talking about nutrition, you're also talking about community. You're talking about the element of surprise. You're talking about sunshine, you're talking about movement. All of it is wrapped up in this one thing called foraging. And it's just hitting a lot of needs through one activity That's really well, what are a couple of things that you might find and eat?
Jessica Carew Kraft Oh, okay. Yeah. So well and it depends on the time of year. Mhm. Right. Yeah. So I know the entire season is different and I sort of live in two different places. I have a place in the Sierra foothills, but then my kids go to school in the East Bay which is about a hundred miles difference. So I have these two ecosystems I'm frequently in and I know the seasonal cycles. So this time of year, yeah, the berries are popping so you can go out and you can get simple berry BlackBerry. What else is going on? We've got all sorts of greens that are still in abundance earlier in the spring. I love to go out and harvest something called miner's lettuce, which is just this really I don't know how to describe it. It's just a neutral lettuce taste, but this wonderful sort of spongy texture. And it's called miner's lettuce because it was a survival food for the 40 niners, the gold miners in this area. And everybody knew. Okay. Oh, wow.
Ginny Yurich Well, so then you're learning history.
Jessica Carew Kraft That's so neat. Yeah. No, it's great.
Ginny Yurich Lettuce. Wow. Yeah.
Jessica Carew Kraft And in the winter, when the rains start, you can start foraging for mushrooms. And that really is that element of surprise that you were talking about, because you never know what fungi are going to be growing. And maybe you'll happen upon this monster cache of oyster mushrooms, right? And everybody's had those. They're fantastic fried up with butter. And if you can go on, on some land or in a park and find those oysters, I mean that, that just makes your day. And so yeah, so many other edibles but yeah the entire year.
Ginny Yurich That was a huge statement to say that just makes your day because here we've moved from the techno optimism right to there. Hey if you can find a couple of mushroom. Yeah that's what living is all about. So it's really neat to read through your story, the change from one type of living to another. And it, like you said, it's not a full change, but it's just a partial change. And to see how much fulfillment that you found out of it. One of the things that you talk about in the book, which I would imagine was really hard to write about, is about your mom. And your mom had, as you say, she endured one full generation from the birth of her daughter to the birth of her granddaughter. And you've been doing some research on how moving back to a wild lifestyle or a wilder lifestyle may help with some degenerative disease. You could tell maybe a little bit about your story, what maybe how that really pushed you want to look into research a little bit more and. Yeah. And what have you found?
Jessica Carew Kraft Yeah, absolutely. Well, I had a wonderful relationship with my mother. She was fun, vivacious, energetic, but she did get multiple sclerosis shortly after my birth. So even though she was quite young when she had me, she was 24. But my childhood was definitely denoted by her decline. And so different moments of her sort of losing the ability to walk for a few weeks, regaining it, but then losing it again. Issues with her vision. All sorts of things can happen with Mars and really the origin of it is still pretty unknown. Yeah, but what we do know is that all sorts of indigenous groups and hunter gatherer clans, they don't get autoimmune diseases like that. And so there has to be something in the Western civilized lifestyle that is contributing to that disease, other autoimmune immune diseases. And then we also know that all the top causes of death in the Western world are pretty much lifestyle based. And I'm not a doctor, not a scientist, so I don't want to talk too much about all that stuff. But but just the basic fact that, like our original lifestyle was not as disease. There were just so many health benefits woven into stacked. As you said, I love Katie Bowman stacked into daily life such that you're not you're not really missing exercise like so many of us can do. You're not really missing that fundamental omega three nutrient in your diet. So I was I was I lost my mother six months after I had my first daughter. And so that was a very poignant thing. Like she was able to meet her first grandchild, which meant so much to her, really brought closure to her life, which she knew was ending. But then there was. Becoming a mother without a mother to tell me what to do. Yeah. And so the grief was immense. And it was and it's, you know, to this day now, it's been 13 years since we lost her. But but we feel that that lack and. Yeah, I was searching for answers. I was like, well, I don't want to leave my kids early the way my mom left. What can I do? You know? And nothing is certain in life. Absolutely. We can't have total control. But I felt so connected to the fact that, okay, well, mom had this disease. That's a function of civilization. I can do my best to avoid the conditions that might have led to what contributed to her loss of her life. So then I looked into folks who are basically treating their autoimmune conditions with diet, with exercise, with time outside, with all of these holistic life life ways that come from how we as humans evolved. And I saw that they were able to, in many cases, reverse their symptoms, you know, go into complete remission through all sorts of non really innovations just looking back at traditional diets and implementing that. So like putting more seaweed animal fats.
Ginny Yurich Isn't that interesting? It's like, what would you call that? It's actually such a good point to say. It's not an innovation, it's going backwards. I love the way you worded that.
Jessica Carew Kraft Yeah, no, it we call it ancestral, right? It's an ancestral medicine. It's ancestral diet and.
Ginny Yurich It's ancestral lifestyle.
Jessica Carew Kraft And that I.
Ginny Yurich Think that was such an interesting part of it is that what you really get through your book, which is called Why We Need to Be Wild, What you really get through that is that I think a lot of times we just take the diet piece. I mean, how many times have you heard paleo, paleo, paleo and it's just the diet, But in this book you're saying, no, it's it's so much more it's these skills, it's the community. And when you talking about your mom and, and people who are in her generation, you say she was the first generation to be mostly raised indoors. You know that childhood is mostly spent sitting in chairs and isn't that the truth? So I like that you're looking at it from this holistic point of view that it's not just the food, it's also the movement and it's also the weaving, and it's also the dopamine release from working with their hands. And all of these things work together is definitely thought provoking.
Jessica Carew Kraft Excellent. Thank you. I'm so excited. Yeah. And I'm not the only one saying this at all. Like, there's I mean, that was that was what was so heartening to discover was that there were entire communities and gatherings of like a thousand people coming together to live with these principles, even if just for a short period of time, even if it's just for a week. And then there are skills schools that are teaching these to people where you can go spend, you know, whether it's a week or it's nine months training in naturalist studies and looking at the health benefits of an ancestral lifestyle. So the resources are out there, the communities out there. I just really wanted to shine a spotlight spotlight on it, you know, as a journalist and as someone who is also integrating this stuff into my life.
Ginny Yurich Mm hmm. Yeah, It is neat to be made aware of all the things that are out there and that sometimes is not going to take some massive commitment that you can put a weekend a year toward it and really find some significant life change. One of my favorite parts, Jessica, in the book was when they were like talking about knowledge. And here's a put down page numbers. It was it was like all this knowledge. Like you think we spend a lot of time about that, right? So you think you know certain things. But then this one, like this list of knowledge and it was like describe the odor of red fox urine. And if the wind is blowing from the southeast, what will the weather be like tomorrow morning? And what type of Caterpillar feeds on cherry? And how are Willow Catskills pollinated? I mean, this is a question is actually was a fascinating because it reminds you that there is a depth of information to be learned outside. Do I think we discount that? We discount it as a learning environment? But I you know, I took those questions on page 86 from your book about what do you say the test to qualify as a neighborhood native is hard. I thought that was such a big sentence. It's like, well, we think we know. But then you had the list of questions. I was like, I would and I was. So you, depending on where you live, your questions are going to be different. But they would have no idea what types of rock in your area can be used for making durable arrowheads. It does remind you that people had a wealth of knowledge and we've lost a lot of it. And hey, probably we should maybe get a little bit of that back.
Jessica Carew Kraft Right? Yeah. And I should say that is that's that's a classic in kind of wilderness training. It comes from a guy named John Young who is very famous, you know, wild skills practitioner and teacher who learned from Tom Brown, who started the first tracker school. So he's in this little lineage of folks who've been immersed in this type of knowledge. And he would go around and offer this test to people. Oh, you think? You know your neighborhood. You think you know what's going on outside. Well, what about this question? What does the.
Ginny Yurich Fox urine smell like? Describe it.
Jessica Carew Kraft And I'm nowhere near that. I mean, he's got this whole naturalist training program where you go and you spend hours and hours in observation learning those types of little nuggets. But the thing is, is that once you do get even just a little bit more of that information, you can have a more rewarding experience outside and you can definitely stay out there, find sustenance, you know, entertain yourself. Right. Because the more you train in that skill of observation and just sitting and being quiet and oh, here comes the hummingbird and all of the ants doing under me. And I have many moments that I talk about in the book where it's like, Oh, just sitting and observing. You can learn so much, and especially if you're outside. And that's not the case if you're inside at all. Right. I mean, it's not it's not a rich living environment. So you're just going to get bored.
Ginny Yurich Well, I love that phrase. A rich living environment. You have Memento mori in this book. And I want to tell you, Jesse, you're the third book I've read this year that talks about Memento Mori, which it must be a thing that really, like people are zeroing in on, that we have to be motivated and have things that remind us to do what we really want to do in life. So I love that that was in there. Let's wrap up with this Survival Week. I love this whole concept of that. You know, you do this survival week and you rate. Nothing we had yet experienced during the Survivor Survival Week challenge us as much as caring for our kids. So you're talking about like, you know, going hungry. We're sleeping in the rain, we're alone in the forest. But these don't even approach the level of difficulty of giving birth and nurturing children. And being a mom is harder than survival. But then what you say, which I thought was so cool, was that mothers and attorneys and doctors actually are well-suited for some of these hard things because they've already done a bunch of grueling work.
Jessica Carew Kraft Yes.
Ginny Yurich I thought that was encouraging.
Jessica Carew Kraft Yes, it was so encouraging. And the thing is, is right. There were like four other mothers with me in this weeklong survival course that we did up in Washington a week with, you know, didn't know where our food was coming from, Nothing to sleep on, just one change of clothes, a knife, you know, basic stuff, and then a bunch of other folks. But what I found was so interesting was like when we mothers got together to chat as we do, we were like, yeah, no, this is I mean, this is hard, this is challenging. But no, it compares. It is nothing like what it's like to have like a newborn and a toddler and husbands traveling and you've got to make dinner and you get sick. I mean, all of these challenges that we've all fought as moms in today's society with without the support we really need, without, you know, the resources that we might have had at another time and place like we have become so tough that we're sort of known as exceptional participants in these wilderness skills programs. So yeah, I totally get because I was like, nobody sees how heroic we moms can be on a day to day. And, you know, the fact that like, yeah, this job never stops. It's 2 a.m., it's 6 a.m., it's 10 a.m.. Like, you're still doing it, right? You never get a break unless you deliberately ask for it or plan it. Right. So we all know what it's like to have that grueling schedule, just like a doctor in residency or like a lawyer preparing a brief for the Supreme Court. Like, yeah, this is grueling, it's tough. And yet these women and myself, we were like, we're up for another challenge. Yeah, You know, it's not just like we're content to do the hard work of mothering. It's like, no, we're got to take it a step further and figure out how to do it in the woods. So. So that was yeah, really heartening. And I think it's a great message for moms everywhere. Like, Hey, what you're doing is so heroic. You're not getting the credit that you should. And I wanted to acknowledge that in the book.
Ginny Yurich Yeah, I loved it. Like they said, moms, attorneys and doctors are the top performing participants.
Jessica Carew Kraft Yes, we get. Yeah, I know. How gratifying. Yeah. Seriously.
Ginny Yurich Yeah. So because, you know, you never know how your skill set that you learned as a mom would translate into other situations. And they'll translate well into survival situations where it's tough. So we can handle a lot a lot of sleep deprivation. I love that part of the book. Well, Jessica, congrats. Congrats. It's such a huge accomplishment to write a book, to have a new book out there. Why We Need to Be Wild. One Woman's Quest for Ancient Human Answers to 21st Century problems. Such a cool concept. Really neat to see your story played out throughout the book. We always end our podcast with the same question, and that question is what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.
Jessica Carew Kraft Yeah, I love this question. I it was a snowy winter day. I was about 12 or 11 and I was with my six year old brother at the time. In a nature park near our house, and my parents are taking us on a walk. But they decided to go home. And I said, No, I to stay out here. This is so magical with all this snow. And it was the first day that I ever left the trail. So the snow made it possible to walk over an area that was usually bramble and scratchy things. And I wanted to avoid and go down to the creek. And so my brother and I ended up spending a couple of hours just following the creek because we could that day in the snow. And ever since then I've been somebody who likes to go off trail because I know that a lot of the magic could be found if you leave that beaten path, you know, if it's safe, it's good. And it all traces back to that one day where I had this idea like, hey, let's let's go over here. We can do that, we could do it. And then we just went out. So, yeah, and I still do that. You know, I love to go on my nature, wander every day and sometimes just pick around, go off the trail, go down by the stream, see what the animals have been doing. And it brings me so much joy. It brings me so much joy to do that.
Ginny Yurich It's so cool that you remember the first time that you did it. And Dr. Peter Gray, he talks about that. I'm free to learn. He talks about how that we really have these sweet memories from childhood, especially when we got to do things on our own. Yeah, maybe away from a parent. I just feel that freedom and to feel that someone else had enough confidence in us to let us go do that for however long. So what a great story. Jessica, It's been such an honor to get to talk with you. Congrats on your new book and thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us.
Jessica Carew Kraft Thank you so much. It's just a delight to talk to you. Your energy is so supportive and wonderful and. Yeah, thank you.
