Episode 194 with Sean Killingsworth
Adults Can't Really Imagine How Bad Kids Feel
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Join us in this critical conversation as we strive to give our children the childhood they deserve - one free from the clutches of a screen-dominated society. It's time to reclaim childhood and preserve the essence of true socializing for the well-being of future generations.
Learn more about Sean here >> https://thereconnectmovement.com/
Watch Sean's 10-minute presentation about the social wasteland here >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KExaW1RbSYA
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT:
194 SEAN KILLINGSWORTH
Ginny Yurich Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Yurich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have Skater, Surfer and the founder of the Reconnect movement, Shawn Killingsworth, here with us today. Welcome, Shawn. It's so cool that you're here. You are my youngest guest. I also interviewed one time and author duo. It was a son and a father, and he was in his teen years, too. So we've had you and him as young guests on the podcast. I'm so thrilled to talk with you about what you're doing with the Reconnect movement and just your thoughts on screens and kids. So can you give us just a little introduction who you are, where are you? And then we can dive a little bit more into the Reconnect movement.
Sean Killingsworth Yeah, of course. So I'm Sean Killingsworth. I am born and raised Orlando, Florida. I grew up as a very outside kid. Actually, my mom was super like on us playing outside and we got 30 minutes of screen time a week and we had to do a super long list of chores to unlock that 30 minutes. He refused to ever get us any handheld gaming devices, anything like that. I grew up loving the outdoors and I'm an Eagle Scout, so I grew up camping a lot with my Boy Scout troop. I currently go to college at Valencia in Orlando, so I spend a lot of time on the recording movement.
Ginny Yurich Is that we were at right now, like, are you in a dorm room?
Sean Killingsworth No, I'm in an apartment. I live with my brother and another friend that goes to college here.
Ginny Yurich Oh, it's so cool. So we connected just through podcasting just a week or two ago. And you said something in our conversation that struck me so deeply and I wanted to know more. And so I'm so excited to talk with you today about all sorts of different things relating to screens. But we're in different generations and they say that my generation was the last to have an analog childhood and you had a little bit of one, but this is a really big difference. And one of the things that you said in our conversation together for your podcast, which is called the Reconnect podcast, was you said a lot of people your age have really strong thoughts on how they will parent with screens. And I just was so intrigued by that. I wanted to know more. So can we start there? What are your thoughts as growing up without the analog childhood? And I know you had parts of it, but like you're surrounded by kids who didn't. Yeah, What are college students and those who are, you know, maybe a few years out from being parents? What is the consensus or the thought on how you will deal with screens as a parent?
Sean Killingsworth So it's an interesting thing because I think in you guys, this generation, it's kind of obvious or it's kind of a general understanding, like, you know what, I'm like so thankful that I grew up before screens, before social media or stuff like that. Like it's kind of just innately kind of felt by you guys. And I think in our generation, growing up through it all, we kind of even though it might not be like a direct awareness of how it's affected us, we just have an understanding. We're like, Yeah, this stuff is kind of messed us up. It's kind of messed up some of the aspects of our childhood and specifically social media and just screen time in general because we live our lives not fully in charge of our time always. We're not always just choosing what we want to do, you know, like sometimes we just get trapped in an addictive hole of like entertainment or, you know, socialize fake socializing on social media. And even just that aspect of like, you know, having time constantly wasted for us that we could be like, you know, out being a kid or doing something else. And then also the comparison on social media in that like formative times, like middle school and and high school, I think our generation, we've just like experienced that in the back of our minds. We just feel the negative effects and know that they're there. So I think that I've had conversations with other college students my age and they have said like, there's no way I'm giving my kid a phone till like, they're older. Like, I just like, you know, I've been through that. I'm not doing that. So I think that the pendulum is kind of going to swing because we were the test dummy generation, you know, we were the first ones to just be handed these apps. No restrictions, no anything, you know, super addictive. And we felt that. And I think that we're going to be very cautious about how we go about it. I think that organizations like 1000 Hours Outside and the Reconnect movement are going to be utilized by our generation because we get that we need things in place for protecting childhood, like 1000 hours outside and protecting socializing in college and high school. Like the exact moment.
Ginny Yurich When it stopped me in my tracks, when you said, My friends have strong thoughts on how they will deal with technology and their own kids. My friend and midwife. Her name is Beth. She has two sons that are right around your age. They're in the early twenties. And she said to me at one point, I thought this was so interesting. She said, Someday our kids are going to ask us why? Why didn't you have more limits? Why didn't you protect my childhood? Why did you give me that? And you are coming out and sharing to the world like, what is it really like? And it's really an interesting thing, John, to see you try and put yourself in the shoes of a previous generation. And I think what you're allowing us to do is to put ourselves in the shoes of your generation. What is it like? And so let's talk about a couple of those things, because I think it's really important. One of the things that you talk about is that from a young age, you were loving to play outside. This is a natural inclination of kids. You want to run around and you had a really hard time finding playmates because they're stuck on screens. Can you talk about what that was like?
Sean Killingsworth Yeah. So it worsened gradually as I got older, but my first experience with it was the handheld gaming device, the Nintendo DS. It's like mini Gameboy, basically. Yeah, those are super popular. When I was a young kid and I used to beg my mom for what, big like because I had so many kids are playing with them. But she said, No, it's going to turn out like you're going to be a zombie. Like, No, no, no. And I was like, you know, later I thanked her. Of course, like you said, my first experience was I went to an after school program with other home school kids during the day, and they all had. Literally every single kid there because Pokemon was super popular at the time. And so every kid had Diaz and Pokemon like that was what everyone was doing. And I didn't have one like my mom to get me one. So it was like in this school program, you know, there's Legos everywhere, there's toys everywhere, there's games to play, and every kid, all they want to do is play. Yes. And it was like these you know, I think it was like high schoolers and like a few older like teachers or administrators watching us. And they were just kind of like probably like whatever easy job for us. You know, we don't have to watch any kids, you know, where they basically just all sit in a room and just like, play on a game. It's like make it easy for them. So I was literally just like my experience, which could have been like making friends and running around outside and like playing games and all this stuff, interacting with other kids. It was just like I just had to like, look over the shoulder at some game. I didn't understand for the entire hours. I was there every time, you know, that was my first experience with that. So that's kind of the idea, right? It's like, so these things are here, you know, if a kid has a fully equipped personal screen with all this entertainment for them, they're not going to just put it down. It has to be facilitated. And the result of them being present, the result of them being there is that they're not going to play. They're going to use the screen same way with older kids. So as I grew up instead of Pokemon on a Gameboy distracting us from interacting, it was social media and Snapchat on a smartphone in high school. So instead of walking around and being in class and talking or even passing notes or, you know, stuff like that, like kids would try to go on their phone secretly in class rather than like, talk to each other secretly in class or at the end of class when everybody's getting ready to leave instead of like giant conversation erupting like I'm sure you are used to. You know, as soon as the teacher lets the reins out, everyone starts talking and gets like everyone to just go on their phone and it'll be silent at the end of the class. So really, the thing that I felt so deeply in high school that led me to need to start something like this was not necessarily the fact it was it was on top of the fact that I personally was addicted to my phone and to social media and all this stuff. And it gave me terrible feelings of like withdrawal and addiction. So on top of that, it was the fact that I would go into school and the social life that I was supposed to have, the social life that I felt excited for going into high school watching like 16 Candles or like the Stranger Things, you know, I was like, I'm going to make friends. I'm going to go on dates and it's going to be I'm going to go to parties, you know, going to be fliers in the hallways for parties and stuff like that. And it was like I couldn't even, like, talk to people because they were already occupied with their phone or already occupied with the friends that they had on their phone. So it was really the social environment that was impacted by the phones, distracting us from in-person interaction and basically out dating it and making in-person interaction a thing of the past and my generation. And it really hurt.
Ginny Yurich Well, you don't ever get that back. You don't ever get that back and you don't get a chance to redo it and you don't get to retry high school or retry the afterschool club. I had an experience as a parent, John, when our oldest. Daughter was in fourth grade. So that's a, you know, similar age ten ish maybe she was. And she played on an after school basketball league or rec league. And we went in early one time for one of her games because it was for pictures that teen pictures. And then there was this period of time in between where they had to wait for their game to start. Maybe it was 40 minutes or something. And similar to your story, Sean, she was the only one without a phone and I could get teared up just thinking about it. I cried, but I watch from the side as she's with this group of eight or nine girls and every single one of them was on their phone and she didn't have one. You could just see how out of place she felt and the other girls were making like literally they were making like TikTok videos as fourth graders. And you could see they were pulling up the dances and we just hadn't done that. I don't think my daughter even knew what TikTok was, and she was so out of place, and I grappled with it for a really long time, like even still, because it's like, Well, what's the answer to that? And I think by you sharing your story, Shawn, I think it helps give parents are resolve to not give their kids those things, if only for the sake of the other kids or at least a few of the other kids. Like what if there was at least two other eight year olds in your after school program that could have played with you if just one or two other parents would have been like your mom and said, Nope, we're not doing that, then you would have had playmates. And I think your sentiment about being excited is such an important one for adults to hear. Like kids are so excited about these things. And what a massive disappointment, Shawn, to hit these different stages and for it to be nothing or it to be even like less than nothing, what you sit there and look at a screen over someone's shoulder, what an unfulfilling life.
Sean Killingsworth Yeah, well, I think that is a powerful message to show parents because I think parents have a lot of power here to help make this change, because there was a point where for one of the days this other kid came and he didn't he also didn't have ads. And it was even just that it almost blinded us more because we were the ones like we were instantly best friends for that day because we were the ones actually playing. So we like traded our Legos and we like, played with it. We were we had a bunch of toys. I was just us. So I think that is really powerful because a lot of parents I think, get stuck in the trap of and this is one of the hard things and why it's a tough problem to crack because you can't solve it with just the individual, because it has to be a social environment has to be created for people to interact. So I personally ran into that wall when I got a flip phone in high school trying to like, you know, have a more eighty's, you know, like high school experience or something like that. You know, as close as I could get to a no phone experience. And what I ran into was that it didn't matter if I got rid of my phone because everybody else was still sexting their phone and I just fell in the same problem, you know, that your daughter was in and that I was in in a country school. So the problem is the environment. And so parents get to this place where they're like, well, I could either not give my kid this phone because I want them to play outside. I want them to interact and want them to have an analog childhood. But then they're going to run into the fact that your daughter was stuck in which it was nine other eight year olds that are all completely shocked. Now, your your daughter is actually more isolated. So I think that we have an opportunity to encourage parents to do something, not just take away their kid's phone, but what they could really do to genuinely make a difference and make it sustainable for kids. Because my experience, I was just more alone. I didn't have a phone to make it more sustainable. Get with a few parents in your kids class and maybe like the friends that your kid already has and try to encourage their parents to push past their kids, begging them for a phone and choose to not give them a phone. Because if you can create a little mini community of no phone kids that gives them a chance to survive and have that analog childhood in the the social wasteland created by phones.
Ginny Yurich I love that, John, and I love that, like you said earlier. And then maybe they have stronger bonds because of that. You know, I think as a parent, maybe you think like, well, that's a waste. What if there's only three other kids or what if there's only for their kids? But your experience shows like, no, they could have some really deep bonds. What would you say to the teachers or the people that were in charge of that afterschool club? Like to me? And so I taught in high school and I quit in 2008. So that's right before the iPhone. So I actually didn't see that adoption. But Sean, when I was in my last year, the BlackBerry phones were coming out. So I'm not even sure if you're old enough to know what those were, but they had like a little stylus and it was starting to be a little bit of an issue where the kids were cheating on tests. So they were taking pictures of their tests like their final exam and texting it to the other kids. You. Maybe we're going to have that final exam the next day. They were putting it in their shirts, the phones, and like trying to hide it. But now what it seems like is that phones are allowed and they're everywhere like you hear stories about. And this is the thing. Like if you haven't lived it, you only hear stories. You can only try and imagine. Like the cafeteria is quiet and people are on their phones and that type of thing. When this is the time where we're supposed to learn social skills and grow, it's like, what are the schools doing? What should they be doing, John? Like, why do they allow the phones?
Sean Killingsworth Yeah. So all it's really it's it's a tough issue to tackle because we use it for so many things. And I think like you're saying, like you guys only hear stories, you know, you haven't lived it and experienced it. So like, people don't know how serious of an issue this is. Like, if it was up to me, no high school or middle school would have a phone access at all. Like there would be no no phone, because you're right, it is so important. You're supposed to socialize and forget about focusing on schoolwork. Like, having your phone is so distracting for academics. So there's this company that I've worked with a little bit called Yonder, and they work in middle schools, high schools, comedy shows and concerts. They have these little phone pouches, they have a little magnetic lock. They like the phone size pouch. You slip your phone in, you like click it close, and you can't open it until it's tapped again. It's like a big a huge magnet. So you get to hold on to your phone, but you just turn it off and put it in. You can't access it. And they have middle schools and high schools where every single kid who walks in the door puts their phone in a pouch and then it opens it after 8 hours at the end of the day. And of course, you're going to run into kids that, you know, sneak a phone in or break the pouch or whatever. You know, it's always going to happen. But on a grand scale, that's pretty much the only way now that you can, because parents would freak out if they're like, oh, like if you, my friend, my kid can't take their phone to school. Like, I need to text them to get in touch with them, to pick them up when really, you know, we did this planet, you know, we survived before. You guys survived for but still, like, that's pretty much the way to do it is that you you just like take away the access for the entire day because that can rebuild that social environment where okay, now no kid has it. Now it's safe to talk and stuff like that because I'm not the only one. So I think that should be implemented in all all high schools.
Ginny Yurich I mean, this might be one of the most important messages of our time. Of our time as humans is that kids should not have access to their smartphones during the school day. And I like that idea of the pouch. I think that what's interesting, Shawn, is that there are answers out there. But your point is a good one. It's the parents that are pushing back. And I think once again, that's why your story is so powerful. You say you have experienced the isolation that these devices create. And I think if parents would come and say and administrators typically say the same thing, well, NEWSROOM kids are still going to sneak it. But to your point, look like even if half the kids snuck their phone, snuck a different phone or something like that, but half the kids didn't have something then at least still you're creating that environment. And I would imagine, Shawn, that there's a little bit of a tipping point there. Like if you have a group of eight year old boys that are playing Nintendo DS, but then four or five of them don't have it and they're playing Legos, and then you're starting to build and you're starting to laugh. It's like that starts to create that pull of like, Hey, hey, there's something else going on over there and I want to be a part of that. And so that's that is in a little bit of a nutshell what you've done with the Reconnect movement for college students. So let's transition and talk about that. Tell us of what you're doing on college campuses for college students with the Reconnect movement.
Sean Killingsworth Absolutely. So I have started a few clubs there, essentially like through the school organizations on the school campus. And the message and what we do is just hang out and have like social gatherings, like socials, like we we're doing a platonic speed dating event later this month, like just to make friends. And we just recently had an orientation where I told everybody my story and they really responded. They were like, Yeah, we live in this social wasteland, you know? So basically my goal is to create that tipping point 100% and not do it through taking away kids phones for so we like for the high school thing, but rather have college students coming into college that want to make friends, choose to make their friends off of smartphones. So we essentially need to have a certain amount of people that want to hang out without their phone and talk and like make friends and have conversations like by choice and then like have that be a normal thing. Because what happens when you take your you know, you have phones in a group of ten people all hanging out and trying. To like, socialize and have fun is that you'll lose 2 to 3 people at a time, at any given time. So 2 to 3 people will be on their phone during the whole thing. And, you know, you want people to look at that and just be like, well, what's the big deal? Like, a lot of people in my generation now have just fully accepted the fact that people go on their phones when we're all hanging out all the time. That's just a normal thing. But I've always seen that as like we're losing like 35% of the energy in the room. We're losing like jokes that could have been made or come you know, this person wasn't listening to the conversation, might have contributed a story that could have connected the whole group, you know, in a way that we didn't experience. And so when we create a reconnect club meeting, everyone is 100% there and present and no one has their phone and everyone is talking and looking at the people they're with. And one thing they're not focusing on another thing that's going on somewhere else. So another thing that'll happen to take people out of the present moment of where they are is like Snapchat has stories for everybody to post what they're doing. So someone will be hanging out with a big group of people and then go on their phone, look at someone else's Snapchat story of someone else hanging out with other people and they'll be like, Man, that looks way more fun than what I'm doing. And then they'll just totally negate all the people that are with in the moment that they have the opportunity of experiencing. And it's all fake. Normally their video, their hanging out is just as lame as yours, you know, or that just doesn't work. So the reconnect is an opportunity for kids to have this social environment where they don't have to worry about comparing what they're doing to other people. They don't have to worry about a notification taking them away from the people they're with, and they don't have to worry about losing half the energy in the room while they're trying to hang out and meet people. Because this is like the last string of hope, because these environments stop existing the second we get out of high school, the only opportunity we might have is like, maybe we go to a summer camp, you know, over the summer and they all take your phones or we go to high school and they take your, you know, they put your phone in a yonder pouch. But once you get to college, you're in charge of your own life. Now you choose where you go. No one can really tell you what to do. You're becoming an adult. And so these kids still need and want an opportunity to be able to hang out with no phones and have that freedom. But now they have to choose it. So the goal is to basically be here and offer them a space to choose to give up their phone. And I think there's real power in that because it's not they it shows that they see the problem and they're willing to be the first leaders to create that tipping point of like, you know, right now, basically everybody in my generation is like obsessed with Snapchat, obsessed with social media. And it's slowly telling you, like, this sucks. Like, we didn't we don't enjoy this. You know, this isn't good for us. Like, we can feel it. And so there's a few leaders that come out to our events. And you can tell they're like, you know what? Like, I can't talk to people, you know, like, I want to I want to meet people in person. I don't like texting. I don't like this. And so I think there is going to be a tipping point once they see how much fun you can have when you're in the present moment, actually having conversations, not distracted by your personal device.
Ginny Yurich That's really powerful. Shawn I think what's interesting, you said like, you know, you lose people 2 to 3 at a time. But I have found for myself, like when I'm with other people and I'm sure I've done this to other people as well, if I get on my phone or if someone else gets on their phone, it just triggers your mind to think, Oh my gosh, I should be checking because there's always things to check. So when you talk about you lose 2 to 3 people at a time, you also can lose the whole group, right? They're getting pulled out because you see someone else on their phone and you think, wow, I should check my things. Or what if something has posted that I need to see, or maybe someone sent me an email for work or whatever it is. And so just that presence of the phone. Simon Sinek had this really cool video where he was up on a stage and he was engaging like How you and I are each two people. They're standing up on a stage, they're sitting in these chairs, they're talking back and forth, and then all of a sudden he just pulled his phone out and he he didn't look at it. He just held it in his hand. And it was so incredible how the whole thing changed just by having it there and present. It was a really powerful demonstration that everyone in the audience can see. Or if you're watching the video, you can see the whole shift. So just by having the phone, there is a distraction for everyone, not just the people that are holding it or the people that are looking at it. There's also this piece, Shawn, that I didn't grow up with, but this piece that you could always be recorded or you could always be photographed, I, I can't imagine. I mean, I had, like, you know, the bangs and the ugly clothes and the whole thing. It's like, what's that like?
Sean Killingsworth Yeah, we've we really just can't catch a break, can we? Should orations got a lot going on. So growing up, it was kind of, you know, the thing that got me the most was I can't do the ridiculous. That I want to do. Like even whether it's like ding dong ditching, you know, in a neighborhood which is like, you know, like a thing that probably a lot of younger boys have the urge to do. But I would be afraid of like a ring doorbell, you know, like, I can't I can't ding dong ditch or there's, you know.
Ginny Yurich What is ding, ding, ding, ding is like ringing the doorbell and running and running.
Sean Killingsworth Yeah. Hilarious. Classic. Just something like that. Like there's a camera on the ring door, but really, in school, it's having everybody not just have a camera, but like, Snapchat is is the most popular for communicating, for sure. So everybody always has a camera out or is literally could be videoing. And I mean, I don't know if you've ever tried to have a conversation and then had a camera stuck in your face, you have two options. You either are just like, get it away or you like try to perform and do something. It just takes away all the authenticity and all the genuine ness that you could be. Because first of all, you're insecure, high schooler, or even worse, you're insecure middle schooler. So you you literally either have to do like dance monkey dance, which is what it turns into when they're like filming you. Because if they and then you have to put on a face or a character and be like, Oh, look at me, or let's say you fail, you bomb, your joke isn't funny, and now you look like an idiot because you went, Oh, you tried to do the dancing thing, and then you were put on the spot and you did it. And now hundreds, literally hundreds of all of the kids at your high school will see that video. And it's just it and it's just like, I wish that never happened. You know, I think another thing is the FOMO that's created by it. So that's, I think, one of the deeper effects that constant videos and photos it has is now you scroll through all your friends Snapchat stories and you're scrolling through what everybody else is doing. That's really fun. They might be at a party, you know, and everybody looks like they're having so much fun. And there's like, you know, like, whatever, everyone's dancing or they went to the springs, they went to the beach, and then you see who they were with, and you're like, Why didn't they text me? Why didn't they call me to hang out? Why? Why did they go? They just left without me or what? It So there's that. And that's really what's, what's been most appealing for me. And then the other fun, the thing that is just so lame about it is that it's always almost always fake. So I've been at parties where it's like I walk into the party and it's supposed to be a party, right? Like, I literally walk in and it's like a group over here, like quietly talking in the corner. And then there's like, it's like open space in the middle of the floor is probably supposed to be dancing. And then there's like music playing and everybody's just kind of like, No one's really talking. And then if I try to and I'll go up to a group of people and they'll be like, what's like, What's up? You know, they'll be like, Or it's just there's no they're already rejecting you and not wanting to talk to you before you even go try to talk. So it's like we're at a party, but this was a talk. But then then this will be this totally disconnected lame party. And then someone will go in, they'll see a flash of a video is on, and then everybody will be like, Oh, let's go. Like, we're having so much fun, you know, like as soon as a video turns on because they know that everybody's going to be watching them. It basically just like takes out all the authenticity so that instead of actually having fun in order to survive in this social wasteland environment, you have to pretend to have fun. And then in actual like normal life, if you just are genuine and having fun, you get caught on a video and you look dumb when you're on a video, when you're being yourself and being normal in person, you know what's actually making people laugh in person and what's what's having fun and being yourself and like, you know, being genuine. It can be really misconstrued on a video and you could look foolish. And so you just give up being genuine and fun and yourself altogether. And then you fake it when when you need to for the video. Essentially.
Ginny Yurich There's this so much to grapple with. You said in a video, I watched your on stage. You said something about like people can't really imagine how bad kids feel because there's no way in here. It's a situation where you're totally isolated if you don't have the device. And that's what you were talking about when you're at the club or with my daughter, if you don't have the device, you're totally isolated. That's starting at younger and younger ages. I mean, you experience that as an early elementary student that age, but then you're totally isolated with the device, too. And so there's really not a good solution here. And I think it's such a cry for parents and adults to step in to do what you're doing on college, but to do it for their kids. I love the mini community of no phone kids because we have to do this. I mean, this is awful. This is an awful way to grow up. You talked about challenging people to remember their favorite memories as a teenager. So, like, if. I were to think back and think about my favorite memories as a teenager. And your point is that those don't exist anymore.
Sean Killingsworth Essentially, yes. I mean, imagine imagine all the time. You got to have fun with your friends and you were just carefree. You're just driving in the car with all your best friends. And, you know, you guys are driving around to the mall or just for fun. And now imagine there is a little window through a phone, through a video to your entire high school. Your entire high school could watch you do a little funny dance for your best friends. How are you going to be yourself? How are you going to have fun? How are you going to make fun memories? How are you going to do anything when you know everyone at your high entire high school is going to judge you through a phone. You can't have those memories that you have from when you were in high school. Yeah. Yeah. I think that it's a crazy example to have Simon Sinek have the phone in his hand even, and totally change the dynamic of socializing. Because I did this when I first got a flip phone and I talk about this in the talk. When I first got a flip phone, I started noticing. I started noticing truly how many kids were actively on their phone throughout the day, throughout at school. Yeah. And not just that if they weren't on their phone actively. Almost all of them had their phone in their hand. So like everywhere I go, they have their phone in their hand. So to paint the full picture of the just basically the brick wall that this generation has to run into is so we have the in-person social environment that we have to look out to is everybody already has their friends on their phone when they're walking around college campus. Everyone already has their phone. Not only that, but they're probably actively distracted on their phone while you're walking around talking about physical space. Let's say you're walking to the library, you know, or walking to the student union. So they're either actually on their phone preoccupied so you can't talk to them. And if not, they already have their friends on their phones. So they don't need to talk to you in person. They get their socializing through their phone so they don't need to actually talk to you. So if you're going to try to talk to people and make friends in person, you're going up against people who are literally you can't talk to you because they're preoccupied or they don't want to talk to you because they're probably socially anxious because they're not used to people coming up and talking to them. So. So in-person is basically just a wasteland. You if you walk around. I've tried to talk to people and you're just you're basically already rejected before you even say anything. They're waiting for you to stop talking to them as soon as you start talking to them. And then let's say you got rid of your phone because you're like, I can't deal with the addiction. I can't deal with all the comparison. I'm having anxiety, depression, and I hate the way I look because I'm looking at influencers and everyone, you know, has this perfect life. You know, I have to delete it. Then you're stuck with this wasteland of in-person interaction. So then, you know, imagine a kid that doesn't have the awareness that I have that doesn't know what is going on with all of it, doesn't realize what's happening with this wasteland. They're just like basically stuck in this purgatory of like and then, okay, so let's say they run into all this brick walls because they're searching for authentic and genuine connection. They're just they, they just they want to so they run into all the walls of I can't talk to people in person. And if I got rid of my phone now, I can't meet any friends or meet up with my friends because everybody's talking in group chats. Then they're like, okay, I have to just download Snapchat because I have to have friends, I have to talk to people. Then you're dealing with Snapchat, which is there's all these things. So let me start from zero, because there's a lot of things that like my generation just kind of like understand off the bat. So Snapchat, you take selfies of yourself and you put text over it and text people. So there's all these rules about how you're supposed to use Snapchat or else you're weird or else you're thirsty. So if you send a picture to someone and they don't respond and you are like, Oh, well, I want I want to tell them another thing. If you send them a second Snapchat, that's like social suicide is texting. Two in a row is you're you're like, weird, you're that and all you're trying to do is talk to someone. You're just trying to have a conversation and to transmit information to connect with someone. And all of a sudden you do one wrong thing and you're ostracized. From now you're weird and this person doesn't wanna talk to you. So that's the other option that you have. If you actually want to try to talk to people. How is this like? Totally. And not only that, but the conversations that you will have on Snapchat are so disconnected because you'll send one. They'll respond 3 hours later. You're like, I don't even remember what I said. The message disappeared. You know, it's like so disconnected. And on top of that, in order. This is the third aspect, the middleman of the tech company that is trying to addict you while you're having that conversation. So you're trying to just talk to your freaking friends because you have no way to talk to people in person and, you know, and then you're trying to talk to. People through this like anxiety filled, you know, like landmine filled social environment. And then on top of that, you're getting addicted through your dopamine center in your brain of scrolling through your friends and scrolling through your friends gives you FOMO because it looks like all your friends are hanging out with people when really they're all stuck in the same wasteland as you are completely disconnected from everybody. So I mean, that's basically where the pitchfork issue came from. Was this cry for help of like, I don't even know what to do. Yeah, I did everything I could do. I did what the adults told me to do. I got off my phone, I got a flip phone. You know, that's really where reconnect comes from. I decided that I needed to create a place for someone like me. If they're like, I'm stuck in between these two brick walls, I don't know what to do. And then if reconnecting can be the third option of where. All right, here's a little oasis in the wasteland of connection. Or you can come here, you know, once a week and you can talk to people and have conversations and actually come together with all people who have all kids in the generation who see the problem and want to talk. And so that's my goal is to is to bring together all the people who are like, I'm sick of this. I'm sick of this. I want to talk. And then we'll be able to hopefully replay it. Something that's worth that's worth it. You know, it's worth worth living for.
Ginny Yurich I love that you use the phrase digitally clean space. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Do you find, then, Sean, that those relationships you build, those relationships, you go to one reconnect event, you make a couple friends and then outside of that one event, you could get together and sit and talk at a picnic bench, or you could get together in other capacities. You could go skateboarding together or supporting together. Are you seeing that type of thing? Surfboard ing? That's probably not even the word surfing.
Sean Killingsworth Surf.
Ginny Yurich You could go surfing together. So are you seeing that kind of thing happen?
Sean Killingsworth So I recently it's it's super new on college campuses. Actually, I was doing it. I've been doing it for about three or four years now. And I started in high school and everybody was kind of hanging out. But in college campuses, I just came up with this new thing that we do at the end of our events where I call it like out of the Blue Exchange. So right now everybody, you know, interacts through Snapchat and texting. Like those are the main ways that people communicate. And phone calls are like a big no no. Like if you receive a phone call, you're like, Oh, hang that up. I can't I don't want to talk on the phone. You know, it's like all the social anxiety surrounding it. So I challenge all the people that come and connect at the meetings. So I give everybody their phones back and I unlock their pouches and I say, All right, it's time for the out of the Blue Exchange. So everybody is allowed to find someone they connected with at the event and get their phone number. But they're only allowed to contact each other through a phone call. Out of the blue. There's no texting, no Snapchat. You have to call each other and talk. So that way it kind of helps because the second you step out of the reconnect about you're back in the wasteland, you know? So it's kind of like a way to keep those people connected and it translated into their everyday lives. And I also encouraged all of the people. At my most recent event. I had my first event recently at UCF where I introduced the concept and everybody was like super receptive. So I told them we have the opportunity to be leaders in our generation. We can be the people who are, you know, we tackle our social anxiety and we can hold conversations. We're not afraid to answer and give a phone call where we're not afraid to joke around with someone we don't know and try to make a friend, you know. So we have the opportunity to show other people that it's okay to interact in person authentically, because what I've discovered is when I choose to invite someone into authentic interaction, they always join in and see that it's better than hiding behind a screen.
Ginny Yurich Hmm. Wow, Sean. So this is an audience of a lot of parents, not all parents, but a lot of parents. And you have a really powerful message that needs to be heard and needs to be heard by the parents, like today's parents. So you may be a decade plus out from having an eight year old that is in the same situation that you were in with the Nintendo DS. Right. There are parents right now who are sending their kids back to school who have six, seven, eight year olds, who have teenagers who are trying to navigate this world of kids and social media and phones. And we're not doing a good job, Sean, or not. When you say you go to a high school and like every other kid is on their phone, so what would you say? I mean, there's a lot of parents listening right now. What would you say to the parents? What should they do? What should the teachers do to help their kids thrive during this age that we're living in?
Sean Killingsworth I would first of all, say that this is one of the most serious things you could do for your kids at this time in their lives. So, of course, you know, a lot goes into parenting. I can't understand that. But we're talking about there opportunity for socializing. Like it's hard for a lot of people in another generation to understand. But we're talking like literally socializing, period is at stake for your kid. So I would say for an elementary school, middle school student, I would say go to your first of your immediate friends in your kid's class, you know, like the parents that you already know or the kids friends that you already know. And just like talk to them about this. Feel like, hey, I heard this, that like we can't even understand, like how much phones affect our kids and like, the entire way they can socialize. So they need friends that don't have their phones so that they can have friends because phones are such a big barrier, such a divider between kids being able to interact. So and, you know, I'm sure there's so many passionate parents out there that would love to have the opportunity to have their kids be able to not have a phone and not isolate their kid, you know? So I would say be a leader in your family community, in your parent community. And then I would say go to the teachers and then the teachers can kind of help facilitate a phone free environment, you know, help those kids have things to do or even try to get the whole classroom off of their phones for certain times. And then I would say, go to the school board, bring this up, use my pitch your and maybe you can link it. But essentially, I talk about this social wasteland and isolated environment that's created by just phones being present, not even like, you know, kids, all the kids are addicted or anything. It's just the phones being there, just like Simon Sinek showed on stage with just having a phone in your hand. So go to the school board and try to create phone free spaces for your kids because it has to be. Everyone is off their phone to like really have socializing start to be replanted. And then I would say as you get out of elementary school and middle school, you get to high school. It gets more difficult because you're in that in-between of elementary school, middle school where you completely control them to, you know, not completely, but like, you know, you have a lot more leeway. And then college, which is just like, you know, off to the races so that they the students are kind of going to be like, I'm not going to get off my phone, you know, come on. But the fact that I take my word for it, they are feeling the pain of this in their life all the time. They feel the social media pain. It is a common thing among our generation. We can all talk about it. I referenced the social wasteland to these college kids and they were just like they just picked it up immediately. There was like, Yeah, the social wasteland, you know, they never heard that before, but they were like, I experienced the social wasteland. So I would say, take that. And just maybe I know everyone's relationship is different, but just connect with your kid on it. And I think that in high school, I think the biggest thing that you could do is just not assume that you know how phones are affecting, you know, like, you know, because I'm really sorry, but there's no way you can really know what it feels like and the effects that it has. Because your experience in high school, you had a social socializing was built in for you. So it's like you can't imagine that being gone and it's literally gone, like fully gone. And so maybe just ask your kid some questions. Hey, like, I saw this thing, this guy, and reference me because I'm like, maybe I'm their age and they'll be like, okay, this guy actually knows he's talking about and just connect with them on their phone and be like, Is there anything I can do to help? Maybe? And then also just provide the one knowledge of like, I heard that it's helpful if you get a whole group together without their phone and maybe they'll be like, Oh, whatever, that's crazy. But still, like they'll be thinking about that because I know that they know how much. Phones, in fact. So just plant the seed of like, Hey, what if you and all your friends hung out without your phones, like all of you guys, you know, or something like that? Like, don't tell them, don't like, you know, think that, you know, just like plant the idea of that. And I think that that might be able to plant a seed in their head to to go about that themselves.
Ginny Yurich I think what I really get out of this conversation and what you're doing is that we need a lot more bold leaders. Yes. Whether that's a parent, a teacher, an administrator, a pastor, a 20 year old who's leading this reconnect movement, a high school student who says, hey, when we come to my house or even the mom, when people come over, I could see as a parent look like, let me be the bad guy. Hey. And people come in, you put your phone in the basket, but I'm going to have the best food and we're going to do these really cool things. We're going to go tubing on the boat. We're going to have a really good time. Everybody's phone goes in the basket. But you can take that on as a parent. And I just think it's been decades of cowardice. Like no one is standing up to say, look, I'm going to lead in this. And I think what happened, Shannon, and this is maybe one of the big differences, is that we have this unfair advantage, right? As an adult, I have this advantage of and maybe it's not an advantage, it's probably the wrong word, but I have this experience of knowing what analog life is like, of how deep relationships can be, how fun. And so I don't have this pressure of texting back and I don't have the pressure because it nobody cares, right? Like we lived differently. So I don't have to know the Snapchat rules, right? I get to live in this different way, but you don't. So I think it's so important for adults to like, understand. Kids have to have analog. They have to have an opportunity to have analog experiences digitally. How did you say it? Digitally clean space. And the only way that they're going to get that is if the adult steps in. That's it. That's the only way for an eight year old. The only way is if that club says no, Diaz is allowed here. That's the only way. And so I think we have had decades and some misguided parents are overwhelmed. I get all of that. I think for a long time we didn't quite realize how bad it was. But look, that social dilemma thing has been out for a long time. People we know, we know now. And so your aunts, it's the adults that have to step in. And if you have a kid that's 16, 17, 18, like you were, that has enough courage to step out and to be a leader. You really can change so much because that permeates. That definitely ripples out. People notice there's a book called Play Boyhood by a man named Mike Lanza, and he talks about kind of like what you were talking about, Sean, like how the neighborhood isn't enticing anymore because there's no kids out there. And so there's nothing that is more enticing than our screens anymore. That's the social wasteland like you're talking about. And so what we have to do is we have to be intentional about making real life enticing for kids again. And yeah, it's so important. So Sean, I think that people need to come back to what you're doing, you know, on a regular basis in order to be reminded of how serious it is so people can find you. You have a website, the reconnect movement dot com and you're on social media. If people are there, they're already there. They can find you there. You have this fantastic video. I'll link that like you talked about a ten minute video, a link it and I agree with you. I think actually if you have teenagers, that video is probably a really good jumping off point to like a good conversation topic. Like watch the video together. It's 10 minutes, so I'll link there in the show notes. Yes. Then you also have your own podcast that you just started, the Reconnect podcast. You have over 15 episodes. So give us just a little snippet about a couple of the types of things that you're talking about.
Sean Killingsworth Sure. Yeah. So on the podcast we discuss like so I have a cool opportunity to talk to people and show you other kids talking about the social wasteland essentially of they understand how Snapchat plays in social life and, and things like that. And we discuss addiction, social media apps and what reconnect could do for our generation. And yeah, I think the pitchfork issue, although the pitchfork talk where I talk about, I basically lay out a kid's experience with social media and I think that would be the perfect jumping off point for parents to either show their kid or watch with their kid because it will hit for your kid. Your kid will feel that.
Ginny Yurich And it will create opportunities to have different conversations about what we could be doing because we all contribute. We all are contributing to this. We all play a role and it really matters. I think that that's what the video shows and hopefully this conversation shows that it matters probably more than we even realize. And your podcast as all these different episodes, like how social media is contributing to social anxiety. You talked about one of your Reconnect hikes. What was that like? And you're talking about Fubbing I don't know. I never even heard that term, I guess.
Sean Killingsworth Well, I think it was coined by our guest that day. So she was doing research for her Ph.D. essay on how phones impact romantic relationships, and FuBBING is a term that is used for like if you ever are choosing your device over interaction with your partner or, or you know or kid or or even parent. And it's not necessarily that you're like choosing it. It's just you are on your phone instead of your partner. And they could take that as like, oh, they don't they don't want me. They prefer their phone, especially kids.
Ginny Yurich Yeah. And you even go through dating. My brother's talked about how like the Tinder, like the swipe that it makes you think like, oh, what? Oh, this person doesn't like peace. Whatever. There's someone else out there I can swipe through. So you talk through that. And even I tell you what, when I was teaching, kids were having intimate relationships as middle schoolers and videotaping it and sending it to all their classmates. So those types of things are going on, too. So parents need to be aware. I mean, that, like you said, it lasts forever. You say moments are meant to evaporate, but now anything can be captured and made permanent. This creates an unsustainable level of anxiety and unnatural pressure. So, Sean, what you're doing is so unbelievably important, and this is a really good place for parents to come and to be educated, educated by you, because we need to be educated by those who are younger than us, who are going through it, to know exactly to kind of know what's going on. And we will never know. Right. But to kind of have an idea of what we can do. So, Sean, we always end our podcast with the same question. The question is what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.
Sean Killingsworth Of And that's going to have to be one day. I, I was we were I was driving home from my from errands with my mom and we had this this huge sun shower over. So just like a flash of like, you know, it's still light out, but there's like all these basically heavy rain for like 5 minutes. We'll just come out of nowhere. And we got in the car and I had I never expected this, but my mom just like, took her shoes off and just started like running around in the in like in the front yard. And then she was like, come on. And then we just ran around and like, jumped in puddles and we like, you know, like, ran in the rain. And I was just like, We can do this. Mom, Mom can do this. We can run in the rain and just get all wet. And it was just like it was so much fun. I was just like so shocked that it was like I was getting the go ahead to just run around in the rain. And it's probably one of my favorite memories.
Ginny Yurich I love that. Sean What an awesome moment of freedom and connection and connection to the to the people around us, but also to the earth and to our world. So, yeah, Sean, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for all you're doing. Thank you for educating the older generation of what's going on and how serious it is and how we need to really be paying attention. So I can't wait to stay connected over the years and to see what happens with reconnect. I know it's spreading to other college campuses and so really awesome work that you're doing, Sean.
Sean Killingsworth And thank you so much for allowing me to share my message with parents. Parents played a pivotal role in this movement.
Ginny Yurich They sure do.
