Episode 180 with Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D.
In Some Cultures They Never Yell at Children
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT:
180 MICHAELEEN DOUCLEFF
Ginny Yurich All right, here we go. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Yurich. I am the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And we found her. We found the Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D.Yay! Welcome.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Ginny Yurich I have to tell you that you have been our most requested guest and consistently for a very long time. Well, and so I'm so thrilled that you're here and already had had your book when people were requesting, but I hadn't read it yet. And then I read it and I understood. Oh, I understood why so many requests came. Your book is Hunt Gather Parent What Ancient cultures can teach us about the lost art of raising happy, helpful little humans? I basically underlined the entire book. It was absolutely phenomenal. Both in the writing style is super interesting, but also the information, gobs of information. I wish I would have read it when my kids were younger. I'm adding it to my baby shower list of books to give. So fantastic book, Michaeleen, and so excited to talk to you about it. Can you just start off by telling us a little bit about yourself, what you do, what you're doing now, now that the book is out?
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yeah. So I am trained as a chemist. I spent almost ten years as a chemist, and then I left science, so to speak, and became a science journalist at NPR. And I have been there 11 years. I covered mostly at NPR viruses. Even before COVID, I covered outbreaks around the world. I covered the Ebola outbreak in West Africa, and I became a mom in 2015. And like, everything changed, right? It was like all of a sudden I kind of started caring less about this crazy, strange virus I was supposed to be reporting on. And I started carrying more about what are the parents doing around the world? NPR would send me to places just to cover an outbreak or a new virus. And I started like paying attention to the parents. And in 20 1718, I was sent down to a little tiny village in the Yucatan, in Mexico, to my village. And the parents there really just changed my whole perspective in view on what parenting could be like, how easy it could be and how effective it could be. And that led to writing this book. I started to realize that this approach that the mothers there taught me and showed me was pretty common, actually, really common around the world. And that we here in the United States are kind of the outliers and the weird parents. And so I wanted to learn this parenting approach. And so I took my little girl, Rosie, when she was 3 to 3 different places around the world. And parents in these little tiny communities showed me and taught me this other way of interacting with children that I'm not exaggerating, transformed our lives as family. And I often say, you know, I wrote a parenting book, but like, I also like Fix My Marriage, like it transformed my relationship with my husband as well. So it's the book is really about interacting with people in a way that's productive and cooperative instead of generating conflict and stress.
Ginny Yurich Wow. It's a phenomenal book. And what a neat thing. Like you had already had those inner workings going on because you're traveling to different places and seeing how different people live. And I thought it was really interesting. You talk in this book about just not knowing what to do. Yeah. And you talk about your own childhood that you had a you write viciously angry home. In fact, I loved this part. MICHAELEEN When I first got to college, I remember being stunned by the silence in the dorm room at night. Where was all the yelling and screaming? Why was everyone so quiet? So you come from this angry home. And I think what we're sort of told as parents is that we have an intuition. We have it in us. We're going to know what to do. You get your baby at the hospital and you come home, but you don't really know what to do, you know? And because we're living in these nuclear families, we don't have parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles. We're sort of on an island. Yeah. And we think we know what to do, which is kind of dangerous. But then we don't really.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yeah.
Ginny Yurich And so you went to these other places and found, I think, things out there mind boggling. No one is yelling. Yeah, no one is upset. Kids are helpful without being asked, like, what is going on here? So I think one of the things, if we could start off with the anger piece, because while we're recording this smack dab in the middle of summer, so I think a lot of parents are struggling probably a little bit struggling with their parenting. And we're heading right into the school year. So we have a lot sometimes of those homework battles and morning battles and all of those types of things. And you talk about how in some of these other cultures, they never yell at a child. Can you just start off by telling us why?
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Oh, my gosh. This is something that is very striking, especially in the Arctic with the Inuit communities. Yelling is seen. And it's not just they don't yell at children. I mean, I've never seen an adult yell. I've been there now four times and yelling is seen as childish, immature. And so an adult would never do that because you would just be lowering yourself to the level of a toddler. You know, kids, they're like even after age seven, eight, seven, eight, nine. Yeah. You know, it's very rare. It's really yelling and expressing anger towards another person is just seen as kind of one of the like the last resort city would ever do and especially towards children. Parents will tell me, like, if you yell at them, they're just going to learn to yell. Right. That they're going to learn like this is how we interact with people. Okay? When we're upset, when something's wrong, when there's a problem. Yeah. And then the other aspect of it is like they don't think it is productive at all because they see children, especially little children. So we often view little children. This was the big mind shift for me and it took a while, but it was so huge. We often see little children as like intentionally trying to kind of manipulate us and hurt us like, say things like they push our buttons, they push boundaries, and they're like, there's like this intentionality to it that we give them and kind of nefarious motivations, Like they want to control us and they want to upset us. And even my sister would say things to me when Rosie was a baby, like she's already controlling you, you know, this little tiny baby. And the truth is, there's no evidence that this is true at all. There's no study that says that a two year old wants to make you angry. No. And in fact, a lot of the evidence shows the opposite, that that two year old wants to help you in. That two year old wants to love you. You know, you are everything to a young child, parents. And so putting this kind of social, nefarious motivations on a child only makes us angry at them. Right. And only makes us yell at them. And and then you a parent would often say, like they don't understand, they don't have understanding, they don't have logic. They don't know how to deal with the little children. They're irrational. They don't know how to deal with the situation. So yelling at them is going to be just completely unproductive and not get the job done, not teach the child how to behave, teach the child how to regulate their emotions. It's going to do the opposite. It's going to teach the child to yell. So it's kind of seen as really stupid, like yelling, like, look at that. Like, even there's some if you look in the anthropological literature, you can see examples where people will say when somebody somebody doesn't even yell, but just kind of releases a little bit of anger. Oh, look how childish he is. Oh, he can't control his emotions. It's really devalued is how a lot of psychologists would say in the culture. And what that does is that creates a wonderful environment for children, Right. Where they can express their emotions, they can get upset, they can make mistakes, and they don't feel like they're going to anger the adult. But what it did for me was shifting my perspective from Rosie's pushing my buttons, Rosie's manipulating me. Those thoughts make me angry at her, make me have anger in her, you know, like, how dare you? You know? Right. But if I once I started switching to. She doesn't understand. She's trying her best to handle the situation and she doesn't know the right way to behave. It allowed me to have empathy towards her and switch those moments of, like, real intensity of like, I could get really mad, like, are hitting me, right. Or throwing something across the room to, like, help me become calm. And as one mom said, an arctic B, the rock in their storm, right? This rock that they can come to. And I remember the first time she did something, she hit me, I think, and I just said to my husband, like, she doesn't have understanding. She's trying, she doesn't know. And her face totally changed. She was expecting me to yell and get upset and she just she softened and she calmed down. And it was incredible how fast. Once I made that switch, she started calming herself down and not having tantrums.
Ginny Yurich It's really neat to see that. You specifically said in the book, how is this this is not going to work, right? I didn't think it was going to work, No. And then it works. This whole part caused me to reflect because you wrote things like adults considered even small expressions of irritation or grumpiness too minor for Westerners to even notice as signs of immaturity. Yeah, So it really does make you pause and think, Wait a minute, am I being super immature? It helps you to reframe. And I think it's very important that says it doesn't help to raise your voice or get angry or just make your own heart rate go up your own heart. And that's true. And I think that they then get mad at you instead of figuring out the things that they're supposed to figure out. Yeah. So just really incredible information in here about yelling and how to deal with it. So then I think that is the question then is how do we deal with it? And you talk. About the power of calmness. Yeah, about how that can transfer from one to the other. So talk to us about how you've learned to remain calm. And I mean, because these situations are hard. Toddlers do have tantrums. Yes. Sometimes they're in places that we prefer that they're not having a tantrum. But you have learned and you say it took a while. And I think that's good to know. But you have learned some steps to staying calm.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. So I think a big part of it is what about what I just discussed? One thing is that once you're already angry, you already have anger in your body. It is really hard to suppress it. There's this myth, I think, in our culture that like I mean, we tell even like two year olds, stop being angry, you know, like, just be quiet. Calm down. I love it. I don't love it. But it's very ironic when you hear parents yelling at the child to be quiet and calm down when you know, like it's like, how are you expecting this to happen? You know, children's emotions are completely dependent on ours, especially little children. They pick up on what we how we feel and they become them. Right? So if you want your child to be calm, you talk very softly, you bring your energy down. And I am telling you instantaneously, your child will start to calm down if you be quiet, if your energy inside your body is calmer, your child will come there. If you're yelling and you're like, I'm here and you're like, Got this energy, your child will come back, right? So one thing is learning to not have so much anger in the first place. That's the thing I think a lot of people don't realize is the parents in the book, it's not like they get really angry and they suppress it and they stop it. They don't have so much anger towards the child to begin with because of this view of the child as this little irrational creature who just doesn't understand. Right. And is it is illogical and just they have enormous amounts of empathy and love for the child to begin with. That again, we kind of tend not to have because we have these ideas of like manipulation and pushing buttons. And that's what read my book and they will come and they will tell me like, I don't believe this. I believe my child is pushing my buttons and like maybe other children, but my child is manipulating me. And I feel really bad because you're talking about like two or three year olds. Yeah, right. Who can seem very vicious, don't get me wrong.
Ginny Yurich But they grow.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Out of it.
Ginny Yurich They grow out of it. Yes. And I think that's the perspective. And when I talk to other parents and they're really struggling and we had one that I mean, he screamed all the time, like his entire two year year to you just screamed. And then all of a sudden it stopped. And so it wasn't because he was vicious or naughty is probably because he was tired. He had two older siblings and he was little. And if they just if one day it's here and the next day it stops, obviously there's no ulterior thing going on. It's just a stage or a phase or they're working through the things that they need to work through. And so I love this idea about don't come to it with the high energy. There was actually a phrase. It said, the higher the energy of the child, the lower the energy that you need to have. Yeah, this is a phenomenal book. It's a life changing book. I so wish I could go back in time and have read it when I had little ones. Just as even if you're parenting that way has to be your parenting. They're going to be listening and maybe their bent is to parent that way to be calm. And I think what's interesting Mickalene is that in these other cultures they are promoting this calm and in sort of shunning the anger. But I think in our culture, people are constantly quashing you like, aren't you the boss? And yeah, why don't you have better control over your kid, right? And that type of thing. And so I think it takes a lot to hold that line. And so there is just a lot of very specific advice. Close your mouth. Oh.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yes, close your mouth is a good one.
Ginny Yurich Words are stimulating. Yes. And so, I mean, I've done that. You immediately switch to lecture mode and it's not the right time or place or maybe it's not even necessary at all. So not only do you talk about the baseline things of not getting so angry in the first place with your child, with your coworker, with your spouse, with your friends, but also if you do, then how do you deal with it? Close your mouth, walk away, and then you say that a lot of times that some of these cultures, they don't deal with behavior problems immediately. They give it some space.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Oh, for sure. This is key. This is really key because there's this idea that like especially if you're upset. Right. Right. Whatever you're going to say is going to come out. And this for me, it just comes out in this way that generates more conflict. Right. But, you know, this is like the parents will tell me and say, Western psychologist told me this, too, like a child can't learn when they're upset. Right. Like, you can give them all the lectures you want, but they can't learn. So you wait until they calm down and there's a calm moment, and then you can. Do a bunch of things to teach them the lesson. And the lesson will be it's stronger, you know, in the moment when it's like you want to yell. Yes, closing your mouth. And I think another key part of it is telling yourself it is going to not do any good to you. It is is going to be unproductive like that's that devaluing of it, which helps. So a new part of neuroscience is this idea that like what emotion you choose, your brain kind of chooses the emotion to have in the moment. These aren't like default. You know, something happens and you don't have to get angry. Like this is kind of an old school way of thinking of emotions that our brain actually selects them and it selects them based off of most of what you've been modeled, So what your parents and society models for you, but also what you've chosen in the past. So one of the things I talk about in the book and one of the things that really helped me was to practice calm emotions each day with Rosy. So we would practice wonder and we, you know, we'd be outside and you don't have to do it for very long. It's like 30 seconds a minute a day, you know, we'd be outside, we'd see like a butterfly. We just like, Oh, Rosie, come look at this. Look beautiful. Its wings are. Or last night we all went out and looked at the moon. I don't know if you noticed, but the Venus and the moon are very close. There's this beautiful crescent moon, and we. Oh, my gosh, the moon is so beautiful. And what this does is sound really hokey, but it totally works. I've been doing it now since six years. Is it teaches your brain to have a calmer emotion. So if you get in that state, you're like, I want to yell, I want to yell. And so angry, I think of the moon or I guess I look at the butterfly. I can replace that unproductive emotion of anger with something that's going to calm me down and calm her down. And I'm telling you, it works. And it comes from this neuroscientist at Northwestern University, Lisa Feldman. BARRETT But I saw it. Parents do this everywhere I go. So the little Kayla, the little 18 month old in the book, he was always screaming and like scratching his mom and pulling the dog. I mean, he was just a little, you know, Right. The grandma would just take him to the window, look at the beautiful gosh, you know, or when Rosie would have a tantrum. Elizabeth, in the book with the sky was is summer in the Arctic. So the sun was always rising and setting. It was very beautiful. Elizabeth in the book would point to this. Look at the beautiful sunset, the colors you see, the colors would be this very calm, you know. And what it's doing is it's teaching the child's nervous system and her brain to find a calmer emotion and find another way of calming yourself down. We're not running away from the problems. We're going to deal with them in a moment. You know, we're going to teach the child the child's, but we're teaching them that first, calm down. These motions are like muscles in your brain. If you use them, they're going to get stronger. So every time you use your anger or emotion, your brain wants to choose it again. And so it takes time to like, teach your brain like another emotion. And I have to say, I'm not perfect, but I mean, it's like night and day. You know, it used to be like anger every every day.
Ginny Yurich So that toll for McLean that people can make a change and they can make a sustained change that's not necessarily perfect. But to have gone from what was the wording use a viciously angry home.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yes, it's absolutely. When you read that I got chills on my arms because I forget I forget what's in the book sometimes the words and and it was my childhood was was horrible. And, you know, in all these changes that I make in the book, I was 40, you know, and people often say to me, well, it's not going to this is going to work because my kids are 11 or my kids are older. And I say like, oh, this changed me at 40. Yeah, of course, as an 11 year old can change. You know, that's another Western myth that, like we have these windows of opportunities to teach kids things and then they kind of close in like, no, the windows of learning never closed.
Ginny Yurich Oh, what a great message. The book just wraps you in understanding. I think you do such a good job of saying this is why you're here and you didn't maybe have things modeled to you and now this is what you can do. And because you tell it through story and experience, it really helps you to remember it. So you like you say, and I think, you know, I'm going to put some of these things. I know cards like you say. If you say, stop it, you're giving it attention. Yeah. You don't give the things attention. You don't react. Don't react. It's immature. What a message. And so if parents are struggling with anger and yelling and they want a change, that's what you say in the book. No one wants to parent that way. And they don't. But they just don't have the tools and the resources to figure out how not to. And you give a couple other ideas just that are fun. Like if you can reframe it, you. Talk about the stories. You know, the spiders in the sweater. I mean, just could you give us an example of, like, the monster in the refrigerator? I mean, they're cute and they're funny and they're fine.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. And we got so rosy now is almost eight. And we've kind of stopped telling the stories because she kind of knows they're not real. But she still wants like we started again a couple weeks ago and she like a couple nights ago, I told her when she knows they're not rare, but she still loves them. They still work on her. It's incredible. So, like, this comes from the family's in the Arctic, but storytelling is universal around the world for teaching children like I'm Irish and like the Irish have almost many of the same stories as the. And so what this does is little kids can't learn through logic in like reason. Their parents are made to learn through stories. And so I was always trying to reason with Rosie. So I was afraid to do this because I didn't want to scare her when I first heard about these stories, because some of them are like in the Arctic, like if you don't wear your hat when you go out, you know, your kid's ears will freeze. It's serious business.
Ginny Yurich It's a big deal, right?
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. It's a big deal. They'll do insured. And so the parents tell them, if you don't wear your hat, the northern lights, the lights up there will come and top your head off and use it as like a soccer ball. I mean, these are like very strong stories and I was really afraid to use them at first. But ironically, you know, not afraid to sit there in front of a Disney movie. But then one day after we got back, I think she was three and she had the refrigerator doors like wide open and was just standing there. And I was like, Rosie closed refrigerator door, like, you're wasting electricity. You're doing all these things that are the logic.
Ginny Yurich Yeah, It's.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Like she had no clue what I was saying, right? Like, and then I finally said to her, I was like, okay, I'm just going to try it. And I said, Rosie, I closed the refrigerator because the refrigerator monster's in there. And if you warms up, he's going to come out and get you. They're all done a little bit with like a wink in the eye. You know, it's not like you're not trying to make them cry and make them, you know.
Ginny Yurich Just in jest. Yeah.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. And to make them think a little bit. And like one of the mom said to take it seriously, like, this is something serious. And yeah, she slammed the door closed and then looked over at me and said, Now tell me more about that monster. And there was nothing. She left it.
Ginny Yurich It worked immediately.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Immediately. And instead of me screaming at her, Close the door or you're not listening, it ended up being like, Increase our communication, Tell me more. And we had we had so many monsters. And recently the messy monster will come and take all her clothes that are on the floor, you know, do a night out, come out all around and a collective and I'll put them in a bin and she'll wake up and she'll be like, We really did go. And I was like, the messy monster. Sorry. Like, again, she knows that it's like me or like, you know, she's great, but she still is like that, you know? And then it works. Yeah. What a reframe. Yeah, exactly. There's so many spiders in the dress. The best ones are the ones that take something in the environment that's real and kind of twists it around a little bit. There was this guy at a gas station that was missing his farm, I think. And so one day and she was very into it. She's like, Why is that guy's done not there? You know, I don't know what happened to the guy who worked at the gas station. But then I started using that like, well, you know, I got what I said exactly. But he did something and then he lost his thumb and. Yeah, I know, I know. It's kind of silly.
Ginny Yurich The power of stories. Well, I think that you this is all in the section. I put it in the section of anger, because not only can you stop reacting, you can choose not to react, and you can choose to enter in a calm way. You can make it fun. You can make the shoe come alive and say your shoe wants to come out. I mean, you can.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Do all these little things. It shows.
Ginny Yurich As you say, you can take the child outside, you can put them in your pack and carry them around for 45 minutes. I remember so often when our kids would lose it. You know, they're really upset. You can't calm them down and then you put them in the pack, even if they're older. Yes. Even if you think people are going to look at you weird or you happen to maybe be driving somewhere and they fall asleep immediately, it's because they're tired or they were really hungry. I felt like 99% of the time it was always that. And you feel like, Oh my goodness, there's something wrong with my child. They're going to grow up and be this crazy teenager and then they fall asleep.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. And you're like.
Ginny Yurich Oh, okay, they were tired. So all of these different actual ideas giving them jobs, let's switch, because that was one of the ideas that you said was a child that's misbehaving needs a job.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yes, this is true.
Ginny Yurich Give them a task. So this is a huge part of the book is that in other cultures, kids help and they help without being asked. And this is absolutely brilliant. Don't give them a chore chart. Tell us what's going on in these other cultures with the kids that are helping.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. You know, it's fast. This is such a great topic. I think a lot of kids are misbehaving because they feel like they don't have a role. And I mean, if you look at the evolutionary biology literature or the primatologist literature, cross-cultural psychology, it is absolutely clear that children are born to help their family. They want to contribute. And this is a huge source of pride and confidence and connection. You talk about putting the kid in the park. A lot of that is just also they need to feel your touch, you know, that like if a child's upset, sometimes I'll just touch her shoulder. So, like, kids need to connect. And one of the biggest ways they connect with their family is to help them. Right. You know, when you help a friend, when you help a kid, when you help somebody, there's this bond that's created. But they feel like they have a purpose. They feel like they're important. Again, parents are everything to a child, right? You are giving them their entire life and sustaining them. And think about how wonderful it feels to help somebody who's helping you and give back. And so a lot of kids in Western culture are missing this. And a big reason is we don't let them help when they're very little. So, you know, the toddler comes over and you're washing the dishes and they start. Well, there's a study where the toddler comes over when the mom is folding the clothes and the toddler starts throwing the clothes all over the room. And they ask the parents in the study, what do you do? This study came out after the books is not actually in the book, but the European-American mom said, Well, I got to get this done. I get upset and I tell the toddler, You're Mickey Mouse, go running, play right, go play, go play with your toys or give them a screen. Go watch this video. And then they ask the Myanmars, Well, what do you do? In the my mom says things like, well, I get a little bit upset because they're making a mess, but I'm really excited because they're interested in helping. They want to help me for the clothes. And actually one of the moms said this is their way of helping. Like she used to like balling up the clothes as they're like the little kid trying to fold them, which could be instead of yelling or shooing the child away. The mom starts teaching them how to fold the clothes, put the clothes in the basket. You know, we put the clothes in the drawer. We don't throw that. They start giving guidance and they start including the child in the task. And what happens is the child's interest in the task and wanting to help and wanting to be part of whatever the family's doing grows over time. If this happens, you know, once a week, a couple of times a month even. And by the time the child is six or seven, they're not only for the clothes, but they still want to help because they have been doing this for a long time and they feel included. Right. And they feel like they're part of the family. And so this is what leads to this, like volunteering. Helping is this inclusion very early, but also this acknowledgment that the child wants to do it. Yes. And it's not again, this like nefarious motivations. They just want to make a mess. No, they want to help. They want to help.
Ginny Yurich Women go back.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. But you but even the biggies, even the biggie, they want to there's even the 40 year old man was.
Ginny Yurich Yes, it's true. But think about your toddlers. They're so eager. And so you have to read the book because it remind you that this is their time. Let them in, let.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Them in.
Ginny Yurich And then it gives them. You talk about the family membership card. This is a huge statement. MCLEAN It says It's a lifelong skill to understand the situation around you and then know what to do.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yes. Wow, this is huge. It's not just about like I tell you what to do. It's like the kid, I guess, is so smart that they're paying attention to the world around them and then they're I can do this. I can do this job. I can fix this. This is what you're teaching the child. So it's not just being helpful. It's also taking initiative.
Ginny Yurich Mm hmm. Yeah, it's. And noticing.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Right. Which is like a huge thing. Yes. Yes. It noticing, paying attention. These are skills kids need to be a successful adult in the workplace. Right. Like, what can I do to help? What needs to be helped? But also, like getting up and doing it.
Ginny Yurich Yes. You give the verbiage, which I think is such an important thing in a book, to know exactly what do I say? What is it okay to say? What are parents saying around the world? They're saying, go fetch me that pail. They're saying, let's all work together. They're saying, hold this while I do that. It just gives you the way to step into it now, which is just little things throughout the day that are allowing the child to see that things need to be done. Yes. And there are small steps to get them done. And here are some of the things that you can say. And then you also talk about how this is an opportunity for bi directional learning. I love that phrase. So you even talk about that in terms of the. Bob story with Rosie.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Oh, my gosh. You tell.
Ginny Yurich That?
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yeah. So I think one of the things we think about in Western culture is the parent is teaching the child at every moment. And I think what you see around the world is the parent is open to the child teaching them. And that's a big part of contributing. It's not the child bossing the parent around. It's the child having input into a situation and again, being included in the ideas as well as what we're doing. And so one Sunday afternoon, I was making chicken kabobs for people to come over and I said, you know, after, you know, working on this chapter, I said, Rosie, come over and help me. Come, come over, my love. That's a lot. That's a term very endearing terms I use around the world, which helps soften your your emotions towards child. Come over, my love. Come help me with these kebabs. So she comes over and she just starts stuffing chicken onto the ground like a whole pound of chicken, like on one kabob. And I'm like, okay, this is we're not going to hire enough chicken for other kabobs. And I was just like, you know, like, I was like, No, you're not doing it right. And so, of course, she gets very angry, scream, starts crying and runs away. So I've completely demotivated her in helping right in like, you know, you do this a few times. It doesn't matter. You do this every every day. It starts to wear on the child's really their motivation. But I was just like, oh, what am I doing? Like, what have I done? And I was writing this chapter and I was like, You know what? I'm not letting her have input in how it's done. Right. I decided that, like, it's supposed to be done in a certain way, and it's very strict. Right. And this is the only way I think about, like, loading the dishwasher, right? Like, this is the only way it can be done, because this is the right way. And I was like, Maybe I need to loosen that up a little bit and let her contribute to the ideas And listen, maybe she has some good ideas. So I intentionally recreated the situation and I said, one Sunday afternoon, I said, Rosie, come over. Come, my love, come help me with these kabobs. And she didn't want to at first. She was like, No. And I was like, Oh, no, come on, You can make whatever kabobs you want. Yeah. And so she comes over and she actually starts making this, like, pepper and chicken one like a mix. It was a little bit better. And I took it and I said, Thank you. And I put it on the tray, and she just lit up like, I mean, when I. Mom accepted my kabob. Yeah. And then I was stunned. I have to you I was stunned because she started making then we started working together and she started making the kabob with all the vegetables and started watching me. And we were working together. And all it took for Curtis to listen to me and watch me and kind of go with what I was doing was for me to accept a little bit of her, what she was doing. And I have to say that since then she has taught me so much. Like if I sometimes she'll come up with these crazy ideas and I'm like, No, I was just like, That's my knee jerk reaction. No, but I'll just let her do it because it's often not a big deal, you know, like, and then it will work and it will work. Amazing. And she'll solve like, a problem that I haven't even been able to solve or something. So it's always like, I think I mean, she's going to hurt herself or waste a ton of resources or something. Then of course I will say, No, we can't do it that way. Here's why. Many times it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if the dishwasher looks crazy one time, right? They're learning through experience and trying. And we want to teach them that, you know.
Ginny Yurich And then we get to learn through their experience.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yes.
Ginny Yurich Yes. That bi directional learning. That's very powerful.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. You know, it's it's what has surprised me about that is how other kids in our life, Rosie's friends, when I allow them that, you know, and I, I do that with them. I okay. What's how you want to do this, you know, what's your idea on this? What ends up happening is they want to be with me and they want to help me. It's incredible. Like just a little bit of that. Like that respect. Yeah. Kids, like, kind of fall in love with you. Yeah. Because they. They don't get that a lot in their lives.
Ginny Yurich Well, let's talk about that because you use two different words. You use respect and you use acceptance. My mom accepted my kebab, but you didn't praise. And I thought this was another massive eye opener in the book where you write, I never. You're traveling around the world now, so I have not traveled around the world. So I haven't seen these different things. You only know what everyone else is doing around you. You say, I never hear a parent praise a child and I definitely never hear lavish praise. What is going on with this? Because I mean, even just yesterday, what something happened. I think my daughter, who is ten, she put googly eyes on a carrot and then she was making it talk and that was like, good job. And I thought, wait a minute, what? Hey doing here?
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. So this is what we do? Yeah. It's how we've been trained.
Ginny Yurich It was like a knee jerk reaction. Yes.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. And we're kind of taught that if we don't do it, we're going to hurt them somehow. That's what you know. But it's crazy Is this very new news saying, like 1970s eighties is when it became all the rage. So my mom was taught, like, you have to praise. Like, my grandpa didn't do that. So that's that's how new it is. It's not a proven and it's I say in the book like it's true. It's a tricky beast because it can motivate a child in certain situations if it's the right amount, if it's the right way, if the child feels like it's warranted. But it can also demotivate a child motivates me a lot. And the other thing it can do is it can cause competition. And I even see this at NPR. When reporters are praised, the ones get jealous and there's like fighting in like, it's really fascinating. And that's what it can do, especially with siblings. It can cause this, like, competition for praise. Yeah. And children doing things just for the praise, too. So it's it's a hard one. And I think I think the thing is, it's just unnecessary. You just don't have to do it. Like I'd rather when I read the literature on Praise, I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm never going to do this right. And so it's just not needed. And there's way more effective means of motivating a child than praise.
Ginny Yurich And when you talked about them, just except to the kabab.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yeah. Accepting their contribution.
Ginny Yurich Yes. I think that almost it maybe to them feels childish too. Or this is not genuine. I mean, it happened just the other day. I had our our daughter the same one with the carrot and she, she's got good style. She always dresses cute. She's got way better style than I do. In fact, I'm always asking her about the clothes. And so we were in the kitchen and I said, I just said I was like, You've got such good style. You know, you can have it. And then all the other kids were like, Well, what about my outfit?
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. I was like.
Ginny Yurich I just read about this.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. You know, that's an interesting that's interesting because, you know, I think it's also about having genuine emotion towards a child. Genuine like that's a genuine like when you said that it felt very genuine, like you've got to think, you know, So maybe that's something you say to her just with her, you know, like you're like or like you said, like you just like having asking for her help is acknowledging and giving to telling her like, wow, my mom really loves my style. You know, like I tell parents and it really is about a genuine emotion. And, you know, it's there's other ways to connect like the googly eyes thing. Like, I would love that. That would be so fun, you know? And the thing like, good job, it's like, Oh, that's so funny. You know, like just it's about, I don't know, using that moment to do something beyond praise. Right? Yeah. Connecting, teaching, teaching. Like. Like sometimes even Rosie is really helpful. That was helpful. You know, like just acknowledging what she did versus job. You know, it's a fascinating topic. And I think I tell parents, you know, don't worry so much about it, but there are negative consequences of it. And yeah, I just get tired of it. I'm doing it, you know? Yeah.
Ginny Yurich It makes you step back and think, Yeah, for sure. And there's a lot in here about teaching your kids to think.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. And yes.
Ginny Yurich I really do love the wording. You have so many examples and also it helps you to think maybe it's okay if I say you need to try harder.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yeah, I mean.
Ginny Yurich These are the things I think as American parents, we don't even go there and it's in the book and you're like, Well, this is what parents are telling their kids around the world. It's probably okay for me to say to my child, You need to try harder. But a lot of the things you phrase as a question, you know, like with the natural consequences or what am I your trash can I.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. That's what Sally said in my job as kids. I mean, yeah, the whole idea is like in this, this is so huge and not I'm actually trying to teach Rosie to get her friends to think and, like, get them to think about what they're saying to you instead of you telling them what to do, which can create huge resistance and arguments. And it nobody likes to be told what to do, you know, And I don't like it. Get them to think about what they're doing and the consequences of that. So that can be you tell them the consequences. You're going to fall off. That one hurt yourself, just that and of like get down off the wall. Right. Or do you think it's safe to be up on that wall, you know, or like recently one of these friends is saying these very hurtful things. And I said, can you say to her, you know, do you not like me? You know, because this is one of the things I would say to Rosie when she hit me, you know, with, look, do you not like me? And she would say, No, mom, I love you. Okay? But then, you know, you're hitting me and that hurts me. She didn't even realize that, like, hitting me was hurting me. An irrational, illogical creatures that don't know what they're doing. Right? Yeah. And it was, like, really out. Stop hitting me. It was like I got her to think about it.
Ginny Yurich Do you like me? Well, this is so interesting because I love that story. McLean Because what's happening is not only are you changing the tone in your home, you are also giving them tools.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yes.
Ginny Yurich For how they can deal with someone else when they're seven years old. That is incredible.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. This is new. This is new. It was a couple weeks ago and I was like, okay, clearly these kids don't this kid's nine, but she clearly doesn't know what she's doing, like how much she's hurting her friends. And so I told Rosie, I said, you've got to get her to think, wow. But this is the essence of self-regulation, Right? Is this causing you for a moment and thinking about what you're doing? Yeah. You know, getting those, like, higher level brain functions, firing. Wow. I'm writing a book right now about your brain when you're on computers. Sorry.
Ginny Yurich Is coming.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Out. Oh, my God. It'll be a little while. It'll be a little link to you. It's. But. Wow. But this is a big part of it is like these devices make us kind of robots where we just do these things. And a big part of it is trying to get those higher level functions firing. And that's what this part of the book together parent is about, is getting the kid to not just act automatically because they're kind of in a habit of doing it, but getting them to think so. Questions. Consequence Puzzles. Yes, the you know, my trash can, you know, when the child hands you the trash. I still use this one. And I'm like, a couple days ago, she handed me some trash and I was like.
Ginny Yurich These are funny. What am I, your donkey? And there's one thing here that truthfully would have given me pause. Do whiny babies get to go to Trader Joe's? But it's making them stop and think. Am I whining too much?
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Am I a baby too?
Ginny Yurich Yes. Practical ones. If you don't watch your lunchbox, you're going to have to eat from a stinky lunchbox tomorrow. Is that what you want to do? You say in here, right at the very beginning, parenting is a learned skill. And this book is filled with skills that you can learn just to reframe it in a different way. How easy is it to just swap your words around and say it differently? So I love these. What am I, your donkey? These are fantastic.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. You know, you brought up something I want to also, because some people will say it's like and this has been documented, we are very afraid to be negative with children. Yeah, right. This idea that like to point out that maybe they're doing something wrong or that it's something that like we're very afraid of this idea of shame. And and I think too, we've gone too far because there are things that are negative. Children do wrong things, and if we ignore them, we're not helping them grow. Yeah, you know, and I think taking out some of the judgment of it and the severity of it really helps. So it's like just factual, like, you know, babies screaming babies can't go grocery shopping because there's, you know, like, you know, it's like it's just much more factual.
Ginny Yurich I like this one too loud. You'll wake up grandma.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yes, exactly. There you.
Ginny Yurich Go. There you.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Go. You're screaming. You're being too loud. You're going to wake up to none of this like you're a horrible child and you're screaming. No, it's just in this moment. Exactly. And I think there's a lot less emotion to both sides, to the positive and the negative. You know, it's just facts. Yeah. And children, I think, respond really well to this because it's clear. Yeah. If we put all this emotion in it, I think then it becomes this like. Like the child's like. Why is it so important? You know, like, good or bad.
Ginny Yurich Right. And your trusting them that they care about grandma. Yes. I think that says a lot. If you say to them too loud, your wake up grandma, it's like, hey, I know you care about grandma and I know that you're old enough to understand that. So it really conveys a lot. My favorite sentence in the book and we'll maybe wrap up here and my favorite sentence. This book is fantastic. Like I told you, I underline the whole thing. I knew immediately. I started reading it from page one and I was my I immediately was like, Oh, this is why everyone has been messaging me to see if I could get you on the podcast right away. It's a phenomenal read. I mean, it's an every parent read, like I read a lot of books and you get something out of everyone's book, but not every book is I get every parent should read this one and this is one of those. So hunter gatherer parent, my favorite sentence.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. If.
Ginny Yurich Someone says to you, Your daughter must be sick of you, this is why she is misbehaving.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yes, it's right.
Ginny Yurich So at this point, you know, you do talk about this point of and it's a lot more work here than it would be in other cultures. But yes, we really are not meant to be like all stuck together with just us in the house all the time without any support.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yes. Yes. This is huge, this idea that, like human children evolved in our act in ways. And what they need is is really like for 3 to 5 caregivers like their parents. And we American parents are doing the task of those four or five people, sometimes one of them, you know, especially with jobs, it's turned out to be one we are given this massive task to do. You know, and like you said, it's very little support, very little knowledge, because we've lost the teachers are the older generation. They're not they're helping us. And a lot of them don't want to help us the right move. And it's really hard. My heart goes out to every parent here in America like we just as you take anything away is just saying take away the knowledge like you are doing a Herculean task. Sure. And the kids are going to be great and the kids are going to be okay because human kids are also incredibly resilient and they just really need love, Love and a job. A therapist.
Ginny Yurich Practically speaking, the book remind you that if you can find a small community and this is how we parent did this is how I parented with young children, was that there was four or five other moms that I would spend time with, with our kids with a little bit of an age range. And that really, really, really helped huge. And you say here the mother is rarely in other cultures. This is such a big statement. It almost it really makes me tear up. The mother is rarely alone when her baby cries. Wow. Like, what if that were the situation? What if when your baby cries, you're not alone? And I think in America, you're almost always alone when your baby cries. It says dealing with a fussy baby is a group effort. And so, you know, this is not there's no pat answer here, but it's just an awareness of community and if in whatever ways that you can find it like. So I'm going to give an example. Our oldest was really fussy and he hardly slept. And my husband worked long hours. So similar to your story and it's like a ten hour day, right? And one day we were sitting in our front. We kind of lived in an area that wasn't very wealthy and actually a lot of kids running around, I think kind of because of that, which was actually kind of great. And we were sitting in the front yard. He was in one of those exercises, I think he was maybe six months or something. And these elementary school kids came there walking around the block and they came up to him and they just started making faces and doing funny things. And he loved it. MICHAELEEN And so I paid them $5 if they would just stand there and play make faces at him while he was in the exerciser for 30 minutes so that I could start dinner. And it was life changing. And you talk about this, I don't even know how you pronounce it. Alo parenting. Yes. Can you find a sort of a mother's helper or can you find a child that's four or five years older, even two or three years older that can come and play with yours and take the pressure off. It just reminds you that it's necessary. Yes. Will your book remind you Necessary is probably the wrong word. It's not necessary, but it's it's very helpful. And it would be life changing.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. It's a beautiful story. I love that story for so many reasons. And it also shows you how an alo parent it doesn't have to be this like full time nanny or this person that's super knowledgeable. Yeah, kids are amazing at it and you're there. So you, you know, it can be a young child and like, huge. I think we undervalue children's role this role for children, the alo parent. And not only is it helping you and your baby, but that kid has a purpose. You're giving them a purpose and a job that makes them feel good. They need that too. I love that. I might have to ask you to use that story is so, so great. Love it. And you don't have people. So you need a village. And I always say you don't need a village. You need like one or two other families.
Ginny Yurich Yes. And really, the most important part of the village sometimes are those other little kids. Yes.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yes, absolutely.
Ginny Yurich It's not even necessarily the other adults. It's the fact that, hey, there's an 11 year old that wants to play with my six year old and that's life changing. And we have had that happen in our life so many times. Where are there? Because they're not sick of kids yet. They really like they don't have their own.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. No. And they know they don't get tired of playing with them either, you know, or it takes a lot more. Now they have.
Ginny Yurich Energy. I know you write like they just learned the things. They're such good teachers because they were just right there. So I cannot tell you how life changing this book was for me. And it was very interesting read. I loved every bit of it from beginning to end. There's so much more than we even talked about. Hunt Together. Parent I recommend every parent, every teacher to read it, give it at baby showers. This is the book that parents need to read before they have the baby. When they have time. That's when you want to read this one so that you can have you say that statement right at the beginning. Parenting is a learned skill, so you can learn it here and people can find you. Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D., Hunt gather parent dot food science. And we always end with the same question What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Of working in the garden with my grandpa? Oh, I loved it. Not every Sunday, but most Sundays. And, you know, I have to say I was bored a lot and I remember being bored, but I still loved it. I remember wanting to go in and watch TV, but then just be like, no, that had a profound effect for me because now I go all the time.
Ginny Yurich Wow. And that draw to our relationship. Yes. That even if it's more boring, you want to be with the person that you love and that cares about you.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. Yeah.
Ginny Yurich And outside. Yes, and outside. Oh, what a phenomenal book. Thank you so much for your time. And truly, I cannot wait to read your new one. So I really hope. I really hope you keep I'll keep in touch with.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. You.
Ginny Yurich So that I'll know when it comes out. Thank you for being here. And thank you for your time.
Michaeleen Doucleff, Ph.D. You too. Okay, Bye.
