Episode 162 with Penn and Kim Holderness
Really Wonderful Things Happen Outside Your Comfort Zone
SHOW NOTES:
Throughout the episode, practical advice is provided based on their own experiences, offering listeners actionable steps to improve their marriages and foster deeper connections.
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT:
162 KIM AND PENN HOLDERNESS
Penn Holderness Oh, go.
Ginny Yurich All right. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Yurich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I could not be more honored and thrilled to be with Kim in Penn Holderness.
Penn Holderness Welcome back, Ginny.
Kim Holderness So much for having us.
Ginny Yurich I just said I'm a total superfan over here. I'm wearing that, doing the best I can hoodie. And we got my dad. I got him the pickleball t shirt recently. He loves the pickleball y'all and read your everybody fights book and family face off game. Just love it. Our kids love running and trying to find the things in the house. It's been really fun. Well, what I was hoping to talk about today actually is marriage, which is kind of an interesting topic here. But when we're trying to get kids outside, we're trying to do things maybe a little bit against social norms. People talk a lot about marital issues that come up. Look, I want to get my kids outside more, but my husband's not on board. My wife's not on board. We want to do these things and it's causing some friction. And so I thought I loved your book so much. It's so practical, it's witty, it's funny, it's relatable, it's comprehensive. And so just thrilled to talk about some of the things that are in there. So before we begin, I think everybody knows who you are. You've been have your video seen billions of times across the Internet. And the thing I'm really curious about before we dive into the book is the timing. So you have this book come out and then nine months later you win The Amazing Race And it's kind of like it was the first time we'd watched The Amazing Race was your season and it was like spring. It was really cool. It was like seeing your book played out in real life. I'm super curious about the timing because I don't think I've ever read a sort of self-help book and then gotten to see it firsthand. It's like you saw all the principles play out on The Amazing Race, and I know that COVID was in the middle of there and it shut down for 18 months and book contracts take a long time. So it ended up being this perfect timing. How did that work out?
Kim Holderness So I think, first of all, the book took several years to write, so we had started that before The Amazing Race process had even started. But I think what they say about The Amazing Race is it's a relationship show. I mean, when it comes down to it, yes, there were challenges. You're going around the world, but really the dynamics and what makes it so interesting is seeing the relationships between the partners and the other teams play out. And we were if you kind of scan the crowd of typical participants of the race, you know, we're in their middle, were middle aged, were in our mid-forties, and we are older than the high level elite athletes. So I knew that we weren't going to outrun them, and I knew that they were they're much stronger than I was, at least. But I knew that our relationship, like nobody was going to beat us there.
Penn Holderness And you're talking about timing. We started the counseling before we wrote the book. We needed that. We started counseling before The Amazing Race because we were getting into these fights that kept happening over and over and over again. So the training for the race, you talk about physical training of going up and down stairs and working out and, you know, maybe even getting a trainer in some situations. Everyone showed up, super ripped at this race. One guy was a bodybuilder. He looked like he looked like Thor, he looked like Thanos. Dusty and Ryan were incredibly ripped, as were Raquel and Kayla. But we had done some training on the relationship side as well, not because we knew we were going in the race because we needed it as a couple. And so but you are right about the timing. It did seem to all come together at exactly the right time. I think that was I think that was just like, that's.
Kim Holderness Kind of cool.
Penn Holderness Honestly, I think it was like that. It took The Amazing Race a little longer to finish writing. So we finished writing the book during that break and covered and we discovered a little bit more about each other. So that was the to me, that was the advantageous training for us. While everybody else was just getting ready at the gym, we were getting our relationship ready.
Ginny Yurich Yeah, but when you saw it throughout the whole thing about the anxiety and even they said stuff at the beginning that you were, you know, this older couple and I didn't. And at the very end it was such a cliffhanger, I knew that you had won. But I thought, how did they win? Because they come down, there's all those keys and you've got to match it up. And I'm thinking, there's no way this other team got there so much sooner. There's no way. But I knew that you had, and it just came down to your being intentional about remembering the different things. I really loved reading a book about marriage, and then seeing it firsthand in the show is a very impactful experience. And so I think other people would love that too. You read the book and then you get to watch it play out firsthand is not fake.
Kim Holderness Well, I think we knew at the end of the day, I mean, it was the adventure of a lifetime and we wanted to participate. I mean, how close it is. Tell your grandkids that you were on The Amazing Race like we. We wanted to be able to tell the stories to our kids and also set an example for our kids that, yeah, getting out of their comfort zone. It's hard and it's scary and it causes sometimes some anxiety, but in most cases it's really worth it. And really wonderful things happen outside your comfort zone. But we also knew that that was a game show and this is a marriage that at no point in time would we put we would not put ourselves in a position to to harm our marriage for to advance in a game show. And we never had to. But he I struggle with anxiety and just being so uncertain every single day of what was going to happen. He was such a good patient partner and so understanding. And I think the part he that maybe in the beginning of our marriage there is a little bit of like, why can't you just be like, happy, This is great. Like, how cool is this? And there certainly there was those other people there. There were like this, you know, there's a contestant whose name is a ruin, and he was part of the dad daughter team. And I loved being around him because he literally looked at every situation. He's like, oh, my gosh, you guys went to Switzerland. This is so I mean, they were in last place and he's.
Ginny Yurich Like last time.
Kim Holderness And that is just not so.
Penn Holderness Many times.
Kim Holderness I built it because I'm like, No, I'm just too high strung. But he recognized that he wasn't going to force me to. He was going to shame B for feeling how I was feeling. And I think that came through pretty intense counseling.
Penn Holderness Yeah, I'll say the same thing about you. You put up with MySpace connectedness.
Kim Holderness That's a that's a.
Penn Holderness Word which the The Amazing Race finds it a way to test your anxiety and it finds a way to test the way that your brain works. It finds you, it finds your faults. No one has ever gone through the race and looked perfect. And I mean, that's the first episode. I stared at a clue. I stared at a clue for 45 minutes or felt like 45 minutes. And I. I should've known that it was a clue because it was a clue. But I overthought it because of my brain and my neurodiversity and the way that I am. And then I studied afterwards. I got really I knew the terms for all these things. Like I got really, really mad at myself. And there's a YouTube clip of Cam talking me down from that ledge. And I think it's just because two things. Number one, we know each other's brain. We know what our deficiencies are, and we give each other grace. As hard as it is for somebody like me who wants to be happy all the time, I need to know that that's not what's going on with her brain. I need to give her some space and some grace for her. Someone who is used to order in detail When her husband does something really stupid that seems very obvious, she has to know that that's who she married. And we're going to not only going to move on, not only is she going to be okay with it, she's going to coach me and encourage me. And in the end, we're not going to use that as an excuse. We're both going to take accountability for our shortcoming and try to get better at it. But we have a partner who is going to get us through that.
Ginny Yurich It was very endearing to see it in person, like when you did the bungee jump and then Pen cried, which is really endearing. It's it was like I said, it was one of the only times that I've ever read a book like yours and then been able to see it in a high pressure intensity situation to see all of the things in real life. I wondered if we could hop onto it, which is a couple of the topics in here. Like I said, the book is so practical and I love that you even give verbiage. Use these words, do this, say this because sometimes we're stuck in those things. One of the things that I related to most was the yes and technique. So this is when Kim was talking about the Broadway musical. I love this part in the book. So can you talk about that? Yes. And technique, I think we've been using it. It really works.
Kim Holderness That's great. Well, the story we tell them, that is, you know, I am a bit of a dreamer and I love to daydream. And that's my favorite thing in the world to do is like, where do you see yourself in five years? And would it be cool if we did this? And I had mentioned like, don't you think it would be fun? Like we could write a musical and you could do like the story and you could do the lyrics And, you know, I was just being very daydreaming and he we were driving and he said, Do you really feel like this is the best use of your time? And it kind of just squashed my daydream me feeling. We've since done more work on this, and we do know that pen tends to not go so daydream because he doesn't want to disappoint me. He doesn't want to say, Yes, let's do it. And if we never do it, that I'll somehow be disappointed. That's just not how my brain works. So that was his way of saying like, Hey, babe, I don't want to commit this because I don't want to disappoint you. This sounds really hard, but he had shed a. Out and away. And then I, then I we caught like.
Penn Holderness She engaged in her protest behavior.
Kim Holderness Which is like I just like, pulled the car over and we are in our neighborhood. So I wasn't that far away. So I got out and walked out because I was going to lose my mind if I had to sit in the car with them for even 20 more seconds.
Penn Holderness And then me, instead of like being able to say, Hey, honey, here's what I meant. I meant all the things that you just said. Like my brain is different. Like, I don't want to disappoint you. Instead, I just started profusely apologizing because I'm like, Can we just get back to the place where we were before, where we were friends and no one was mad at each other? And maybe I'll be able to have sex someday, like all of like, all of those things that it goes through a guy's brain. Like, what can I do to get things like back to normal instead of actually telling her how I felt? So both of our protests, behaviors minded, which is profuse, apologizing to make it go away. Hers is just disconnecting completely and going somewhere else. We did not get to the point where we could actually talk about this. The way to avoid it in the beginning would have been yes and yes, I hear what you're saying. Yes, it would be wonderful to do that. Yes. I understand that you have these dreams and you should know about me that I don't want to disappoint you. That's the reason why I haven't even talked about these things. We could have still been driving in the car and come to some other sort of conclusion if that was what we said, instead of me saying. Do you think that's the best use of your time? Which is, number one, a little condescending. And number two, not Yes. And it's no, But.
Kim Holderness Yeah, and I think another in this situation thing that would have worked really well is tell me more. And so that's another phrase. And that the reason why I wanted specific phrases in this book is I think it's been later diagnosed that I'm in Enneagram one and I don't really I haven't done a deep dive in that, but I like a specific rule.
Penn Holderness You know how I know she's an Enneagram one because.
Kim Holderness I don't really.
Penn Holderness Identify she doesn't accept the fact that she's in any.
Kim Holderness And so I but I like specific rules. So I wanted I told our counselor like, tell me the exact things to say in these situations and the. Yes. And it's it's kind of a cue from improv. So in the improv world, you never if you're on stage and these these comedians and they're telling a story that's obviously improvised, you never say no, but you always say yes. And so no matter what character your scene partner comes up with, you just take Yes. And so it's not to say that Penn has to go along with every single daydream. He just has to show his partner, in this case, me, that he's listening. And so another phrase you'll hear I say a lot is, I hear you all right?
Penn Holderness Yes.
Kim Holderness I hear you. I hear you. That sounds you know, that situation. It could be. I hear you. I hear that you are wanting to conquer something big right now. Tell me more about that. And so it's literally just repeating what they just said. I hear that you're really you want to take on a big project right now. Tell me more about that. And I didn't that's that. That's all I need. I don't need buy in from Penn on these things. I need him to show that he's listening to me. He's making space for me, he's validating my opinions. And they have to tell you, when you run a business for somebody, they do not often align. I would say it down to the content we make out of the podcast we had just recorded earlier. We have very different opinions on how things should look and how things should be put out into the world. And there's no way we'd either we'd either be divorced or not doing this. We would have just taken other jobs if we did not have a way to communicate these things better out.
Penn Holderness Sorry I hit my head.
Kim Holderness You did.
Penn Holderness It again. These are new, clunky headphones that. Are you the microphone? I'm sorry, but.
Ginny Yurich I just love the verbiage and I think that instead of shutting someone down, then you just ask you said ask clarifying questions without judgment. I thought, well, then sometimes the other person will talk themselves out of it anyway. I think that's sort of how I am. I'm a dreamer. And then if someone once has me talk about it a little bit more, then I can start to see those things that maybe might not work. Or at least it just keeps the conversation on the table. So I loved that. Yes. And technique helping the other person feel heard. Okay, so there is another one in the book that really stuck out to me, which was the secret contract. And I think this is one that would really apply to the listeners here is that when you're trying to change something and something has been a certain way for a long time and you're trying to change and you have this sort of secret contract and you talked about it with the toilet paper, but how do we deal with the secret contract and breaking that and really communicating what our needs are?
Penn Holderness Yeah. So just to explain secret contracts a little bit more.
Kim Holderness This has been the huge game changer for.
Penn Holderness Us. Yeah, they're unspoken rules in your marriage that happen most frequently just to get through the day. You know what I mean? Just especially for people who have children. And you go from playing zone defense to man to. MAN two Like full court press, and there's just all kinds of different strategies that so.
Kim Holderness Many sports could. Well.
Penn Holderness Thank you. So as that happens, we all take on these roles that we never talk about just because we've got to get them done and we don't necessarily love the role.
Kim Holderness And never talked about it. So it's a it's something you take on just to make a relationship work and function. And most frequently they're never talked about. A lot of secret contracts work, for example. And does all of the sports in our house. And that was a role he took on very early. That means he is the team he's on the team mom chat. He's the only dad on the team mom chat. He's signing up for snacks. He's sending them up. He's getting there physically. He handles sports. But I and we've never talked. We never discussed that that would happen. I do all the grocery shopping and meal prep and planning and all the school stuff, like I'm the person that gets them, you know, registered signs up for the parent conferences like, so we never talked about it, but it works. And because it works, there doesn't necessarily need to be a change in that, right?
Penn Holderness They're not always bad.
Kim Holderness They're not always right, but they're bad when one person is feeling taken advantage of and one person is not feeling appreciated or doesn't feel like you're not holding up on your end of the bargain. The story we told in the book is in our downstairs bathroom. It's kind of a half bath, but everybody uses it and the toilet paper ran out and I had just decided I was going to see how long my family went before they filmed it real quick.
Penn Holderness There's a lot of ways to wipe your butt without toilet paper. And I learned.
Ginny Yurich I know you actually did. They would advocate for the paper towel, and I don't know how much I really agree with the.
Penn Holderness Paper towel, Jenny. Like, there's some paper towels that I would never put down there, But there's some soft paper towels out there.
Kim Holderness He had a slob clean.
Penn Holderness The problem is, you're going to you're going to clog that. The plumbing.
Kim Holderness They had to. They were.
Penn Holderness Using. Yeah, like, mostly Kleenex.
Kim Holderness Yeah, mostly Kleenex. And it was a really obscene amount of time. They let it happen six.
Penn Holderness Days, right?
Kim Holderness And I was basically documenting it on Instagram because my kids, you know, never had it. Nobody else had Instagram besides me at that point. And it was this Everybody was invested.
Penn Holderness I had Instagram. I didn't know how to check those stories. So I was.
Kim Holderness Doing it on stories. Right. And petty. Yes, it's totally petty. But it really people were invested, though, because an and then I lost my mind because he's like, well, I just don't even know where we keep the extra toilet paper. And we lived in the house at that point for several years. And the fact that my able bodied family had noticed it and just they're like, but I had done it, but I had done it. So my part, my role in this is I had done it. I made sure there's extra tissue under the sink. I were on the back of the toilet. I was made sure it was there and I had had enough. It was unfair in hindsight, the way I did it. The public humiliation part is was not cool. What should have happened is, Hey, hey, guys, I'm sure you've noticed the toilet. There's no tissue. Okay? What would need to happen to make sure that gets filled?
Penn Holderness Yeah. When we. When we brought this to our counselor, he asked the right question right away. I think that Kim went to the counselor expecting. Sometimes when you go to a marriage counselor, you're like, Here comes a victory for me.
Kim Holderness Yeah, right, Right.
Penn Holderness And a good counselor doesn't award points. But it was interesting. In a lot of situations, when you go to counseling and you think that you're right, you're never 100% right. Like there's something that.
Kim Holderness You think can be could've done that differently.
Penn Holderness Or what he said was, had you ever once asked anyone to change the roll of toilet paper? And the answer was no. She never had she'd never asked about it because it was the secret contract. And that's when we learned about secret contracts.
Kim Holderness And so I have to say now we do a better job of addressing those because they still pop up. You know, we just went on to this wonderful vacation. It was our first in a family vacation in years because of COVID and everything. And there I had packed everything was a winter vacation. And I'm pretty uncomfortable with like a skiing and all of this. But but I was a little nervous about it, but I had made sure we had enough layers and everything, had gloves and our red socks. So that meant I had to kind of set the alarm earlier for everybody else to make sure I was ready to make sure they were ready. By day two, I was like, You guys, we're done. I'm not going to wake up any earlier to get you ready to have you roll your eyes at me. If you're cold out there it is now on you. These are the things you need to know. And they were fine with it. So now we have we have more clearly defined roles within our marriage and within our family.
Penn Holderness By the way, one of the most popular secret contract. I'm starters is the fact that the mom, when the mom packs for vacation, the mom packs for everyone but the husband, and the husband is always just like, Oh, I'm packed. Let's taking you so long.
Kim Holderness Yeah. And but he doesn't do that. Thank God.
Penn Holderness I learned.
Kim Holderness He learned. But we we just have those. And we even we will point out, we will say, speaker contract. You know, if we.
Penn Holderness Need to talk about.
Kim Holderness It, we get the twinge of this is seeming a little unfair. I'm not feeling good about this. We'll just yell out secret contract. And that's kind of the international sign for let's stop and evaluate, is this working for all parties? So.
Ginny Yurich Yeah, there's a lot to look out for there. And I love that you said mature people. It's in the book. Mature people ask for what they want and you have to get past a couple seconds of awkward, which is kind of like what you were saying. We have a conversation about it. It really, in the end is not that big of a deal, but just for a little teeny bit.
Kim Holderness It's awkward and it's we. That's another thing we say a lot.
Penn Holderness It's sit in the sack or.
Kim Holderness People ask for what they want is it's so funny. And most often it's, you know, Hey, what do you want for dinner tonight? You know, if we're getting, you know, take out tonight.
Penn Holderness Well, you still haven't.
Kim Holderness I know you.
Penn Holderness Still haven't gotten this right. Hang on.
Kim Holderness I don't know if there's ever.
Penn Holderness We ready for our dinner conversation. Here we go.
Ginny Yurich I'm ready. Okay.
Penn Holderness Babe, I'm going to get I know goods carry out tonight because we're not going to cook. And I also, like you, deserve a break. You've cooked all week. What do you want for dinner?
Kim Holderness Oh, I don't know. What do you in the mood for?
Penn Holderness That's not what you say.
Kim Holderness What do I say?
Penn Holderness Pick whatever you want. I don't care.
Kim Holderness And then he'll pick. He'll say Chinese food. No, I don't want that. And then that.
Penn Holderness Steak.
Kim Holderness No, no.
Penn Holderness I don't do sushi now.
Kim Holderness We just had sushi you.
Penn Holderness Just said.
Kim Holderness You want. So that helps immature people ask what they want. And it's like, okay, I want that chicken from the new Peruvian place. So I he kind of he will say mature people ask for what they want. And we honestly that phrase we use with our kids because I think sometimes are we are our kids are now 16 & 13. And I've noticed that they look for us. They look to us for approval on a lot of things down to my daughter, what classes she should sign up for next year or what activity, what club she should be in or. Yeah, and she'll be like, Do you think that's a good idea? Or what do you think about that? I'm like, Oh honey, this is like, I've already been through high school, I've already done this. What do you think? And here's like, I don't know. I think so. I'm okay. Mature people ask for what they want. Are you really? Do you? What does that really interest you? And you're like, No. Okay, to say, no, I'm not interested and move on. So I think it's giving them the confidence to identify what they want, which is hard for a teenager. It's hard for me to identify it.
Penn Holderness So I agree.
Kim Holderness Trying to I mean, we're not perfect at it, but trying to let our kids give them the ability to identify what they want and ask for in a mature way. And it's a life skill for sure, and it can be awkward. So that's like sit in the suck. So for those first, if it's in, you know, in the situation, a teacher really wanted her to and even my son, we had a coach who was trying to recruit him for a baseball team. I think they were low on baseball signups. And so it's very flattering if somebody wants you to, you know, do that and participate in that. And I think he was going to do it because an adult thought his idea. And we just had to say and we could kind of sense the hesitancy and say, hey, but is that something you're really interested in? He's like, Oh, I was hoping to play on this basketball team, but I don't want to disappoint him. I'm like, No. Mature people ask for what they want. We're not we're not like, You have to. You're 13. What do you want to do? So he had to it was a really kind invitation, but he had to kind of stick up for himself and advocate for himself.
Ginny Yurich Well, what a cool thing that you can take the premises that are in the book and apply them to your parenting, because you talk in here about how to be a better listener. There's so much in here about being public with your gratitude about just these simple switches and you have all the verbiage in there. It was it's really a phenomenal read. I wonder if people didn't really know what to expect. I guess I didn't really know what to expect when I picked it up. Well, I understand that.
Penn Holderness Yeah. And you're saying that because if you're familiar with our work, we're not normally these things all the time.
Kim Holderness And also, I think people who follow our page in I love this, by the way, they're following because of I hope we can make you laugh. And so it's very goofy. Three minute write songs and dances.
Penn Holderness Let me also say, though, one of the reasons we wrote the book was because people would comment with things like, You guys are my dream couple of hash tag relationship goals. I appreciate that. Thank you. Honored. But I, I do. I would love for people to know that no marriage and no relationship is perfect. In fact, I think that if you're not fighting ever, you may need to. I know that sounds.
Kim Holderness You were just talking about this yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. I mean.
Penn Holderness You can talk about it.
Kim Holderness Yeah. So he had a very sweet. He dated a girl for three years before we had started dating. Very sweet. She's wonderful. Human. But one of the problems, Penn said, was we just never thought everything was so. They were so and not necessarily aligned. I can't describe because I wasn't in their relationship, but.
Penn Holderness That was a good description. She she was great. We never fought and then we broke up. And I don't know, I'm not going to say it's because, like, there is no passion. I do. I just do think that maybe we should have thought there should have been some I mean, there's, you know, one ever agrees with everything with with a partner. And and so I think that fighting is like a hurricane. Someone once explained to me that a hurricane is necessary for the earth to release its energy or else it turns into a gigantic super storm that destroys the planet.
Kim Holderness He's really into like weather systems and yeah, and so now it just releases a lot of tension. And I think the good fight at the end of a good fight and by the way.
Penn Holderness You learn more about each other.
Kim Holderness Yeah, you learn more about what's in your person, right? And you learn more about each other and you can I think fighting, by the way, when we fight, we are not or rarely screaming. We're not swearing at each other. We're not like we have some very specific ground rules, rules of war, if you will. But at the end of it, I know while he's really upset about this, this must mean a lot to him. Like I get to know a little bit better, so.
Ginny Yurich Oh, I love that. It was a really interesting perspective shift. You said each conflict should nudge you a bit closer together. So like you're talking about if you have a relationship for three years with no conflict, you're not having that chance to nudge together. So I just I love the book so much. There's so much in here. It's really been a joy to get to talk with you about it for a little bit here. Kim and Penn Holderness Everybody fights, so why not get better at it? Fantastic. We have the game too, and you really have so much. It was it's been fun. I think I came across you at the in in the Tub video.
Kim Holderness Oh wow.
Penn Holderness That was a friend of hers.
Ginny Yurich So that was one of my first memories. So I've been following you for a very long time. And just to dive into your blog, your blog is beautiful. Your website is so beautiful, and the blog has all sorts of things in there marriage, food, wellness, favorites, your pelvic floor, I mean, all of the things there.
Kim Holderness Are therapies.
Penn Holderness Blog it gets.
Kim Holderness So.
Penn Holderness Much traffic. So no, no. What it is.
Ginny Yurich It's fantastic. It's comprehensive.
Penn Holderness No, I don't. I, I.
Kim Holderness Told you about it.
Penn Holderness I just don't know. Oh, the.
Ginny Yurich Pelvic floor one.
Penn Holderness Yeah. I haven't, I need to see like a video of it or understand what it is, but.
Kim Holderness I of getting outside. Right. I mean we do I have we do try to exercise often. I love to be out. I'm I grew up in Florida. We now live in North Carolina. The weather's pretty mild but my my mood is very easily dictated by the weather. But I do as much as possible, like to get up and run and pelvic floor repair was needed. And I learned that in Europe they give you like it's due to give birth. They send me comes your house house and you get like eight sessions after you go.
Ginny Yurich We are really missing out.
Kim Holderness I know. And I was like, well they they're like, well, they do that because they want, you know, women to basically have more babies. I was like, So I got to hear why they're doing it. Give it to me.
Ginny Yurich Yeah, everybody needs the pelvic floor information, especially for getting outside. If you want to go on a hike or anything like that. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Yeah. It's been one of the most popular ones on your blog, and then your podcast has well over 200 episodes, and I've loved just learning about you seeing this other side. You know, you see the entertainment and then seeing the other side and really thinking through what it must be like to work together and to have this business to have your production company. So I just have enjoyed all of it. The store, the book, the game and the podcast.
Kim Holderness You're so you're being really nice. I know you're being so kind right now.
Ginny Yurich You have so much going on. It's incredible. I think if people really took a step back and thought, would I be able to do that with my spouse, I would imagine that most people wouldn't be able to. And so then you walk through and the book even has practical things like you talked about, Kim, your 12 minute rule that, you know, you're battling depression and and that really helps.
Kim Holderness No, I use this all the time. And it's so funny. I have a good friend who quoted me on it and she's like, Oh, I do that your 12 minute rule at the gym. So it's basically like it gets my butt to the gym or on a walk or out on a run, a set the timer, and if I can do it, maybe 12 minutes is too much. Maybe it's 7 minutes. You start the treadmill or you get outside and you start. You go for 7 minutes, you go for 12 minutes. And at the end of that 12 minutes, you're like, I'm done. Turn around, go home. You know, and you've done it. And you kind of you check the box. You've done it for the day. But usually for me personally, if I've already started and I have the momentum, I'll keep going. And then you never feel worse after going for a walk, you know?
Ginny Yurich Yeah, it gets you over the threshold to say, Look, I'm going to give this small bit of commitment and then changes everything.
Kim Holderness So and I look, we're talking about all these wonderful things we've done, which is so flattering, I want to say, especially, you know, like a website and blog and videos and stuff like that, we do have help. And that is I want people to know that, like.
Penn Holderness It's not just us.
Kim Holderness We started this together and there was a point in our marriage where, you know, I was doing one part of the business and he was doing the other. And it was it was so much and we almost it was tough on our marriage. And so we almost needed a tiebreaker. So we hired Anne Marie. And she actually plays the role of the Midwest neighbor in our videos. But she's a marketing genius and she just she helps us, you know, she uses a so many things, by the way, but she helps with the even the minutia of like uploading a video and all these little things. And then Sam is a pro at web design and editing. So as people start to start a business where they want to get into content or podcasting or blogging, we did it solo for a while and it was very, very hard and it was fine. But our marriage has really benefited from having help, and I just don't want anybody to think that if they look at everything we've done, that like we somehow have done it just ourselves, because that's just not realistic just to put that out there. Yeah.
Ginny Yurich Yeah. I think that's great marital advice too, that you find help where you need it and you don't just continue on in the same path. So like I said, I really, really love the books. One of the best marriage books I've ever read, I think because it's so practical and it's so comprehensive, you hear all the things that people are actually struggling with, and then you give tips and tools on how to deal with them and then the tips and tools actually work. So really enjoyed it. We always end our podcast. I don't know if you both want to answer, one of you wants to answer, but we always end our podcast with a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.
Kim Holderness My grandmother's and grandfather's pool. You know, to have a backyard pool is very fancy where I grew up at the estate and they put in a pool when, you know, people start having grandkids and that, you know, just sure, I can I can even look down and see my fingers. They get so wrinkly, right when you're in the pool for so long. And I have a lot of cousins. And so and our family didn't have a ton of money to do, you know, big vacations or anything like that. So our vacations, using air quotes are kind of escapes. We're going to my grandparents house, which is about 20 minutes away and just spent the weekend, spent summers just in that pool underwater. It was just a highlight of my childhood for sure.
Penn Holderness Let me know if this sounds familiar. All of my childhood favorite memories are sports accomplishments. And I was just sitting here thinking, and there's like eight of them. And it's pretty basic. Like, I like when I got a I got a kickoff return for a touchdown one time. I still remember exactly what that was like the first time I got up barefoot skiing, which is when you water ski but you drive skis on and then like I had a save in a soccer match where we won the game and they like, carried me off the field.
Kim Holderness How old were you.
Penn Holderness Around the age? Between the ages of like eight and 1204. All that stuff. That's a little egotistical, right? Like, it's just all of the good stuff. I don't.
Ginny Yurich Think so. I think you know what it is? It's unique. And our brains, I think, remember those unique experiences. So you played for a long time, right? You play sports, you have a lot of sports memories. But the ones that are unique, like being carried off or getting up for the first time barefoot, those are the ones that really, I think, encode in our mind. So those are fantastic memories. I'm so grateful that you guys took the time to be here and you really so grateful for your book and.
Penn Holderness What you were doing.
Kim Holderness I know, but I want to say thank you to what you do and encouraging people outside to get outside because, you know, we for me personally, being outside, even on a cloudy day and looking outside right now is so beneficial, beneficial to my mood and the function of my day does better. And the days when I don't get outside, it's really cold or it's raining. You can tell. So too. It's encouraging families to get outside and providing really concrete ways to do them is so great. So thank you for what you do.
Ginny Yurich Yes. And thanks for helping with everyone's marriages because I know, like you said, people struggle, but you have really great tips and also great perspective that the struggles actually can bring you closer. And thank you for being here.
Kim Holderness My gosh. Thank you for having us here, Joy.
