Different Types of Weather Instill Resilience & Grit in Kids

Ginny: Welcome to the One Thousand Hours Outside podcast. I'm so thrilled today to have Linda McGirk and we are going to be talking about a book that changed my life, There's No Such Thing as Bad Weather. Is it true, Linda?

Linda: It is to an extent. I like to say it's one of those sort of semi truths that parents love to tell their kids just to get them outside. So, you know, by and large, I think it's true. 

Ginny: I agree. And, you know, I tell you what, everyone talks about this book everywhere. I see people talking about how this book changed their life. So, so excited to have you on, Linda.

Linda is a journalist and a photographer who grew up in Sweden, approximately on the same latitude as the Gulf of Alaska. She spent time in nature with her two young daughters, a worm digger, a frog catcher, a splinter remover, a tree identifier. These are good qualifications. Mud cleaner, Band-Aid provider, fire builder, and chef. I love that. And she was taught to go outside every day, rain or shine, because it was good for her. And I know you say in your book you came to America and it was a little bit of a culture shock. Right? 

Linda: You know, it was I noticed that, you know, American kids just did not seem to be connected with nature, as you know, a lot of the Scandinavian kids are. And I think it just had to do with the way they were raised, just a different culture. So, yeah, it was definitely a shock. And that's also what motivated me to write the book. 

Ginny: Yeah. And you have been writing for a while, your blog. You said you're a journalist. How long had you been writing and sort of mulling these things over before you wrote the book? 

Linda: I really got the idea for it when my oldest daughter was born because that's when it became so obvious. And she's 13 today and the book came out when she was nine. So it was a pretty long process. But, you know, I just had to take that time. I had to go that way. The book was able to follow my kids' progress as they got older and got through preschool and then entered elementary school. And it was important for me to be able to include all those parts in the book. 

Ginny: Yeah, our oldest is 13 as well. So we became moms around the same time, which is so fun. And so we're going to be talking about some of the concepts in the topics in your book. And I just think parents will find it so encouraging.

My personal story has been really influenced by your book. I was always sort of like the grin-and-bear-it type in the winter, you know, like I'm just I just to try and get through, get out a little bit. But I didn't enjoy it. And what your book did for me was it helped me reframe how I look at different weather and learn about what this season provides that other ones don't. It just made me excited. And so even though we were already spending a lot of time outside and even though we were already sort of a family that believed in the power of nature, your book was a missing piece for me and our family. So I think it holds so much value and people constantly are talking about how impactful it is. 

Linda: So I love to hear that. And I think a lot of people are in that situation. And I have not been a lover of cold weather either. But a lot of people seeing me out there in the winter in Indiana with my kids, they just assume that, like, she's really got to love winter. And it hasn't always been like that for me either. But I just recognized that I needed to get my kids out there. I did not want them to hibernate and like, hate half of the seasons or so, it was important for me to sort of instill that love for the outdoors around. 

Ginny: Yeah. And your book really does that. And it's so inspiring. So one of the topics I don't even know how to say the word, are you going to ...

Linda: give it your best shot ...

Ginny: OK, I'm going to go. It's fru lefse live. 

Linda: Yeah, that's not bad.

Ginny: OK, all right. What is it really? 

Linda: Friluftsliv

Ginny: Oh I was so off.

Linda: No, it wasn't terrible.

Ginny: Say it one more time. It's beautiful. [

Linda: Friluftsliv

Ginny: This is a Scandinavian word.

Linda: It is a word that literally translates to free air life, but it's really hard to translate. It's a little bit like you know, the Danish word for being cozy together. It's more than a word. It's a lifestyle. It's a cultural rhythm that is learned and passed on from generation to generation. And it sort of revolves around spending time outdoors and especially embracing nature in everyday life. 

Ginny: I love that. And I love how you say it's generational. It's like we can take this concept and pass it on. One of the things you said in the book is that it's a physical activity outdoors to get a change of scenery and experience nature with no pressure to achieve or compete, which I really loved that last line. You know, I feel like do you find that there's a lot of pressure to achieve and compete, especially in American culture?

Linda: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's kind of everywhere. I mean, just look at sports. Nothing wrong with that. But we're, like, really obsessed with sports and getting kids into sports early, and it gets competitive really early.

And, you know, people get really busy schedules and the same thing with work and careers and like the American dream. And, you know, you get to make money and excel at work and climb the corporate ladder. And these are all values that we pass on to our children. And it starts already when they're babies, like parents started comparing milestones. And then it just keeps on going into preschool. You know, you have three and four year olds who are like drilled in this academic work. And there's so much pressure to prepare them for kindergarten and then to prepare them for the next step. And you're always sort of preparing, preparing for the next step and with the ultimate goal being, you know, Ivy League education and then, you know, career after that.

And, you know, there's a lot more to life, I think. And I think what friluftsliv does is that it brings in that element of non competitiveness. It's just about being in nature. And, you know, it's usually not motorized or it's always non motorized, I should say. So you propel yourself and it's slow.

Like another way of thinking and thinking of it is slow nature, just like we have slow food or slow entertainment. It doesn't require a whole lot of gear. You can make it very simple and it's just a great, I think, a good antidote to a lot of the stress and the pressure and the competitiveness that we're seeing in society today. 

Ginny: Yeah, I mean, you don't really hear about it. It's almost like we should make up our own word, Linda. Well, you know, everything feels competitive. And I even felt it in utero. You know, it's just like listening to Mozart and put these headphones on your around your belly and 

Linda: the Baby Einstein. Yeah. And, you know, I remember looking around for preschools for my oldest daughter and I went to this one private preschool to check it out. And I just came into this little dark room, you know, and seeing these three and four year olds sitting there at these desks, I mean, more or less the entire day, except for short recess periods where they had like a small blacktop area to play on and little swing set. And they were just drilled at these academic tasks all day long. It was really disheartening.

And then I saw at the end of the school year, they lined them up and filmed as they were trying to read like these short passages out of a book. And sure you know, they could do it, but they didn't look like they were enjoying it. And I couldn't help but wonder, are these kids still going to enjoy reading five years from now? Are they enjoying it now? There was just so much focus on, OK, you're going to read before even starting kindergarten. In Scandinavia, there's just not that pressure at all. I think childhood is very sacred here, that before the age of seven, people don't really have very high requirements as far as academics go at all. It's all about play. 

Ginny: Yeah, I love that. We have adopted that because we homeschool so we don't start formal academics unless they're really interested until around age seven and that has gone really well for us. Our kids all love to read and they caught on so quickly around age seven and it was fine.

Linda: They're fine because they're more likely to be developmentally ready at that age. So then it will be a lot quicker. 

Ginny: Yeah, yeah. You say in your book there are many ways to get ahead in life without an Ivy League education, which I love. It is a good reminder. 

Linda: Yeah, it is. Yeah. I hate the fact that kids, we're really prizing, you know, academics and higher education and that's fine and well, but not every kid is going to fit into that box. And there are so many other options out there. 

Ginny: I like what you said, too. You said boredom is key to achieving better balance within yourself regardless of age. So that hit me because, you know, I think we talk about it for kids, how boredom is so good for them. It's hard as a parent, I think, to push through boredom because they're whining and you just kind of want to give them something to do to pacify the situation. It's good to remember that boredom is good for kids. But then you put regardless of age, boredom is good for us, too. 

Linda: It is. I mean, that's when creativity flourishes, right? And yeah. So I definitely try to keep our calendars pretty open. I do not like being too booked up. I need the space. I need to make space for that boredom and creativity. Yeah. Both for myself and for the kids. 

Ginny: Yeah. OK, so let's talk about schedule. So one of the things that we do and I think you do this as well, and maybe a lot of people do this just not in America, is scheduling around the weather. So when we started to learn about how good outdoor time was for our family, we dropped a bunch of activities because, you know, if the weather's nice, you want to be able to capitalize on it. So you said whenever the weather is nice, you feel like you have to take advantage of it. So, how can we live a life that allows for taking advantage of these beautiful days? 

Linda: Yeah. So I think it sort of originates in the Scandinavian climate, which is, you know, it's not the most... it's not... people don't come here on vacation for our climate. Let's just put it that way. Winter is long. It is. It can be very dreary. It is very dark in the winter time. And so I think just living in this climate where it's kind of wired into us, that you have to take advantage because when the sun is out and I'm sure people in the Pacific Northwest can relate as well, you know, you get rained on all the time. And so when the sun comes out, it's like, you know, everybody just turns to the skies and turns their faces towards the sun and you just enjoy.

And so this has sort of created this urgency, I think that is tied to the weather. And yeah, if it is sunny, you just have to allow yourself to be flexible and to drop other plans and just take advantage because, you know, the summer is short, just like life in general, you know, like it's just about enjoying it while it lasts. And yeah, like I said, we like to keep our calendars open and not being too booked up.

I think a lot of people don't realize they get into all these activities, especially like with the kids and all that. But it is nice to allow some space for just family time and downtime and recognizing that everything doesn't have to be a grand adventure. You know, like every little outing, every outing you do doesn't have to require a lot of advanced planning. You can be spontaneous. And just take advantage of your local local areas, there's usually a lot to see that you might even have overlooked. So another piece of advice is just trying to expand what you have nearby, because that makes it easier to be spontaneous when the weather's nice as well. 

Ginny: Yeah. And there's always there always seems to be something. We did a little walk this morning before we started school and work and we saw two bunnies. You know, we just walked through the neighborhood. The kids thought that was exciting. Like what you said, it doesn't have to be grand and it can be spontaneous. And I liked what you said, too, about sometimes maybe skip the thing that you already had on the schedule.

You know, I always say, if we're going to sign up for basketball, you know, I'm going to do that. You know, if something else comes up, we'll miss the practice. But you do feel very pressured to not miss and, you know, to see that commitment through at the highest level, but just to have a little more flexibility and then maybe that helps other families be more flexible as well. 

Linda: Right. So just packing a picnic, you know, that's a fun way of getting outside and without requiring a lot of time or money. Just keep it simple that way.

Ginny: I love it and just knowing that it's really beneficial. You talk a lot about the health benefits of outdoor play. And you had this quote in there that says, “The first step toward fewer runny noses and less coughing is to let the child spend as much time outside as possible. This goes right along with where we're at in the world. When children are outside, the physical distance between them increases, which reduces the risk for contagion through direct contact.” The more time spent outside, the better. So I mean, that was kind of written for like these days, right? 

Linda: Exactly. And we're actually studies coming out now on covid showing that the risk of spreading the disease outside is minimal, especially when you practice social distancing. And I'll be writing about this in my next book. But I mean, researchers, they already knew from experiences with the Spanish flu and tuberculosis and other and even just the common cold. It is well known that infections spread a lot more easily indoors because there are more surfaces for the germs to stick on. And the physical distance is, you know, it decreases and, you know, especially daycares and at school. That's why kids always have the flu or common cold break out. Once school is back in session because you have all these kids gathering again inside. Right. So, yeah, when it comes to infection, there's no question. 

Ginny: Right. And then there's so many other things that you talk about. Interesting, though, I used to always think about the fall. You know, everyone goes back to school, everyone gets sick, you know, they get colds. And I thought it had to do a lot with all of those things, the proximity, you know. But then my home school kids also tend to get sick in the fall. And so I think it might also have to do with vitamin D, and light, and movement.

So let's talk about those types of things that you talk about myopia. You talk about sensory issues, ADHD, less prone to injury because kids are better able to assess risk. So let's talk about some of the other health benefits they provide. 

Linda: Yeah. And I mean, there's so many of them, both physical and mental and I mean, looking at cognitive ability and social skills. But as far as physical health benefits go, I mean, look at all the lifestyle diseases that we have now with obesity and cancer and diabetes, you know. Being outside, it really sets kids up for a healthy lifestyle that they can keep on, that they can maintain throughout the rest of their lives. 

And, you know, we can see that it does have an effect already in childhood. So, for example, children who are outside for the better part of the day. They have less of a risk of obesity and they have better motor skills and less myopia. What our eyes need to develop normally is they need that sort of varied environment. They need to have that long distance, like seeing objects at a long distance and like the outdoors provides all that, whereas indoors you're a lot your eyes are a lot more limited. 

Ginny: So right now, there's a depth of field right where you can feel like you're looking really far away, right? You see the bird fly through the sky or you're looking really up close to see the ant that's crawling across the sidewalk. Your eyes are practicing or they're training or whatever you would call it. They're doing different things outdoors than indoors.

Linda: Right. Then, you know, you mentioned ADHD as well, I think. And there's several studies showing that the children with ADHD and other sort of difficulties concentrating at school, you know, they do a lot better if they get to spend more time outside. So there are definitely a lot of benefits and risk management as well.

You’ve got to sort of step back and let the kids try their hand at risky play. But I think it's a term that gets misunderstood. It's not about exposing kids to hazards. It's about just sort of providing the space for them to explore on their own. 

Ginny: I love that. Yes. Yes.

Linda: And not constantly intervening but letting them try their hand at whether it's balancing across some rocks or whatever, you know, letting them, trusting that their bodies will tell them when they're ready to climb up that big rock or the tree or whatever it might be. 

Ginny: It's not letting them play by the side of the road when they're 18 months. Right? It's about trusting their bodies. We always would say, you know, if they needed help, we would say, “You're probably not old enough.” So they want to climb on the rock like their older sibling, but they need help to get up there. Well, then we would say, “Oh, well, you know, maybe when you're older.” It's like you said, their bodies know. And that one of the things you said, you said the most dangerous thing of all is to sit still. 

Linda: Yeah, I think it's fascinating that a lot of people fear. I have so many fears tied to outdoor play, but don't see the downside of letting kids sit on the couch and play on their devices all day. I mean, we are hearing now all about, you know, sitting is the new smoking. And that exercise is really so important and daily movement. And when kids are outside, they just naturally will move more. 

I mean, it's just too easy to get caught or to get stuck on the couch. Sitting is really not good for us. And I, I mean, I feel it myself. You know, I have a profession as a writer. I sit still a lot. So if it weren't for my lunchtime walks. Yeah. That definitely you’ve got to have something that breaks up the monotony for your body. 

Ginny: Yeah. And get you moving. You said fresh air impoverishes the doctor. 

Linda: You were mentioning vitamin D earlier, which researchers are now finding is having a profound effect on our immune system and all kinds of other bodily functions. And we're just sort of beginning to understand all this. But that's another thing because of the risk of skin cancer and so forth, you know, the sun has gotten a bit of a bad rap, but it's important to remember that we also do definitely need sunlight. 

Ginny: Yeah, so and I think it's helpful for parents when you know that the outside time, this noncompetitive outside time is helping your kids health, especially going into the fall here. I think that's a little extra motivator, you know, to go out after school, to save the homework, maybe to a later time or one of the things you talked about was recess. And in talking about ADHD and a lot of times I remember as a child, the kids that would get in trouble would lose recess. That was sort of, you know, the way it went. You say recess, which is spent outside, makes up 20 percent of the school day in Sweden. So 20 percent, one fifth. It's amazing. Why do you think recess is so short here in the States? 

Linda: You know, I think it comes back to that sort of desire to maximize productivity that we're very focused on getting the kids to the next to to take the tests and get to the next level and and all that. But unfortunately, you know, it's kind of misdirected because we don't necessarily become more productive because we're forced to do a task without getting any breaks. Our brains need that little breather in between. And also kids learn a lot better when they get to move around. And I think kids do play and play is also really important to kids' learning process. So unfortunately, I think it's just a matter of maybe either ignoring the research or being unaware of it, I don't know. But I mean, with all this, with all these new facts coming out, it's surprising that this goes on, I think. 

Ginny: Right. That you should be starting to see it turn back. And in some places, you see news articles about certain places that, you know, they're extending recess and it's really helping the kids. There's research that shows that test scores go up, you know. And so have you found things that parents can do or should parents just try and really maximize the time that they have after school or maybe walking to school, those types of things? 

Linda: Right. I think it could be a combination of things. Of course, the realm that you have the most power over is going to be the home, right? I mean, that's the only place where you're really in charge and you can do things your way.

So I always when my kids were younger, I would and we lived in the States, we weren't able to walk to school. But yeah, I would definitely recommend families who do live close enough to the school. It's a great way to start the day. But also what I did instead was trying to make up for the lack of recess once the kids got home from school. So that would always be the first thing we did when they got home because I knew they hadn't been outside all day. So we just, you know, forgot about homework and all that until later. So the first priority was just getting outside. 

So I think you've got to kind of start there and then you can always try to influence the school and the administration as well. You can try and get involved with the PTA and see if there's any way in there or if you can find an advocate on the inside. So that can be really helpful as well, because there are teachers who feel passionate about this, too.

Because a lot of, you know, a lot of this has changed in the past few decades and there used to be more recess and more outdoor recess. The kids used to be able to play outside in the winter and now they're not. I mean, older teachers have told me this. So I think that there is some support among teachers at the school. So it's just a matter of how much you can get the administration to go along with it. But, you know, it doesn't hurt to try. Yeah, I definitely recommend that. But if you can't get through to the school, you can at least change the way you do things at home, your own routines for sure. 

Ginny: OK, so let's talk about winter. You said some schools are not letting the kids go outside in the winter. It's probably one of the biggest questions that we get at 1000 Hours Outside. What about winter? You said, “In the summertime it feels like a victory when you stay outside all day long. I agree. In the wintertime, the kids don't always feel like going outside, and nor do I, especially if it's dark and slushy. But then I remind them how nice it is to come inside after being outside.” So tell us about the winter.

Linda: Yeah. So obviously I think the first step to enjoying winter is dressing for the elements. I cannot stress enough how important this is. Kids who are not dressed appropriately and adults, I should add, will not enjoy it if they get cold and wet. You know, after being out there for five minutes now, that's not going to end well. So if you want to be out for any longer amount of time dress for the weather and, you know, then it's just about creating a habit. I think this is so important that it's like a rhythm. You know, we always go outside even if it's winter and the kids know that. And when you do it from when they're little, they come to expect it and it becomes normal. And because they know we do it, because it's good for them, just like we try to eat healthy and, you know, do other things that are good for them. And there are so many fun things that you can do in the winter, too. And usually kids like once you get outside, like the hardest part is often getting out the door. And you just have to sort of get across that mental barrier when it's dark and like, yeah, when the weather's nasty 

Ginny: and they're little and you've got to get their hands and mittens. I mean, it is hard.

Linda: Just to just get dressed to go outside. Yeah. But, you know, I always think when I struggle with my motivation, I always try to think to the next step. And that is, you know, I know how good I'm going to feel about having gone out. Once I come back in, then I'm going to feel that it's all worth it. Like even if we don't even do anything special out there, just getting out there and getting the fresh air and moving, you know, moving around and then coming back into the warm house, you know, maybe having some hot chocolate and it makes it all worthwhile.

And so I believe that we need those contrasts in life because it makes our feelings much more powerful and stronger. You know, and I also think it's important for kids to understand, like how comfortable it is inside. And it's also important to know what it feels like outside when it's really cold, because it could also be, you know, like in a survival situation or something like that. I think it's a form of prepping, if you will. Yes. It’s for the realities of life.

Ginny: You talked about that. You said being able to cope with different types of weather will make children more resilient. That's a big deal.

Linda: Yeah, it is. I think resilience is one of those predictors of future success in life and work as well. I think I work pretty hard on instilling resilience or grit in my kids. And it's a balance. You know, you don't want to push them too hard. But still, I want them to be able to see a challenge and then be a little bit uncomfortable. But knowing they can do it and wow, I know, like, when you mean, when I take them hiking and we sometimes will climb a peak and things like that, I want them to be able to visualize that peak and know that they can do hard stuff. I mean, that's really going to be invaluable to them in life. I think. 

Ginny: I really love that, Linda. 

Linda: I think you can apply it to any area of your life, really? 

Ginny: Yeah, it's a different way to frame it and resilience and grit, those are things that you can't really measure. No one teaches you how to teach those things. But, you know, if you have it in your mind that, hey, taking my kid out in the snow and in the cold and in the dark for twenty five minutes or forty five minutes, that's going to help them learn that they can overcome things. They can be in uncomfortable situations. Those are really big. 

Linda: Yeah. 

Ginny: Yeah, yeah. I love that. What about babies? People ask a lot about babies. So we always brought our babies along in those little carrier packs. And you talk about how in Scandinavia that daily fresh air is seen as essential for babies ranking just behind food, sleep and the nurturing love of a parent. So what about babies? How do we get babies outside? What age should we start? You talk about napping in your book. A lot of people want to know about babies. 

Linda: Yeah, yeah. I think it's a common misconception that babies cannot handle being outside in the cold. But obviously this practice of putting babies outside to nap all year round and which is very common in Scandinavia, I think that sort of disproves that. I think babies need fresh air just as much as older kids and adults, for that matter. And napping is an excellent way of starting to expose them to the outdoors. It may not seem like much if they're just sleeping out there, but when they go to sleep, they can still hear the sounds of nature. And it's a very soothing environment.

And so as far as age, well, my kids are not babies anymore, but they were both born in February and they napped outside from when they were about two weeks old. And, you know, you’ve just got to make sure that they are once again dressed appropriately and you don't you don't want to bundle them up too much. You want to dress them like you would dress yourself to be comfortable in the cold weather. And same in the summer. You just have to watch. Definitely don't expose them to direct sunlight. If they're asleep and just watch the temperature for sure. But if you're wary about leaving them outside on their own in the stroller, which is common in Scandinavia, then, you know, just go take them for a walk in either a carrier or a stroller and you get some exercise too. 

Ginny: Our kids slept better outside than they did inside for sure. They'd always fall asleep in those carriers. And I had read that even just being in the carrier when they're awake is good for their eyesight because with each step they're having to track the up and down motion. So there's so many benefits for getting babies outside beyond just their sensory stimulation. And our kids love to look at the trees. Now, the trees are like nature's mobile. 

And you said that the ideal napping temperature in Finland is perceived as twenty one degrees Fahrenheit or negative six degrees Celsius. I mean, that's chilly. And many parents let babies sleep outside as low as five degrees Fahrenheit, which is negative fifty degrees Celsius or even colder. So I mean, I've never seen this here in the States, but is it common in other countries?

Linda: Yeah. Yeah. In this particular city where they conducted the study, 95% of the parents do this. Almost everybody. 

Ginny: Yeah, yeah. Almost everybody.

Linda: It's very common. And I should mention, because I do get the question sometimes, people ask about Sudden Infant Death Syndrome and baby or child mortality rate and so forth? And it is among the lowest in the world here in Scandinavia. So definitely if it were at all risky for the babies, I can guarantee you that the doctors would not recommend it. But they do, the doctors do recommend it for that matter. So it's very interesting how even in the healthcare system, you know how the culture can be so different, the attitudes. 

Ginny: Yeah. I want to sort of close out here. I found a lot of just fun ideas in your book which are inspiring. You know, you see these fun ideas and you think I could do that. So one of the things you talked about was a sledding party, which I thought was really fun. You talk a lot about outdoor cooking, year-round, which was new to me. You know, we did a campfire in the winter for the first time and the kids did s'mores, roasting marshmallows. And that was magic to have a fire going in the winter. So what are some of your fun favorite ideas to do outdoors? 

Linda: Cooking is definitely a favorite. And I think the key is really, like I said earlier, just to make it simple.

A lot of times when we meet up with other parents and kids, we just decide on a park or somewhere where there's a grill and a place for the kids to run around. And we'll go for a short hike together because we find that the kids do a lot better if they have other kids around. And so we'll do a short hike and then we'll grill out and just have a meal together sometimes. I mean, there are more sort of organized activities as well. There's this thing called a quiz walk that's super popular here in Sweden where there are questions placed along like a trail and you can win prizes. And so you go around and you answer the questions and you can win prizes. 

Orienteering is another favorite. It's where you look for hidden stations out in nature and you get to use a map and coordinates to find them. It's like a little known sport outside of Scandinavia, but it does exist in the US, but it's sort of obscure. But the kids here do it at school and it's great because at the same time they learn to navigate using a map and reading the landscape, which is very useful. So there are just a lot of things you can do. But the most common way for us to get outside is just going on a simple walk near our house and yeah, just seeing what nature is doing at the moment. So like right now, we just the other day we went out on a walk and we looked for signs of fall. And so it's just about observing changes in nature and maybe seeing if there is anything to forage and things like that. So, yeah, we try to keep it simple most of the time, 

Ginny: ...and it's still so enjoyable. I love how you said, “Eat as many meals as possible in the open air during the warmer months.” I think you said there's something like everything tastes better outside.

I'm going to wrap it up here with a quote you said, “No matter how lousy a day starts out, we can almost always turn it around by going outside and enjoying nature together.” That's a quote from your book.

Linda, if people want to find you, if they want to find your book, you said you have another book coming out, where can they find you? 

Linda: So I have an Instagram and a Facebook page where they can find me searching for Rain or Shine Mamma, and that’s Mamma with two M's. And I also have a website, lindamcgurk.com, and my book is on Amazon and pretty much any other online book retailer. 

Ginny: It's everywhere. 

Linda: I think so, yeah. Yeah. 

Ginny: It's really worth reading, one of my favorites. Like I said, it was a missing piece for me and I constantly am seeing people post about it. You know, it's one of those that forever is going to be impactful for families. So thank you for writing it. Could you tell us a favorite childhood memory of yours that was outside? 

Linda: You know, I've been thinking and thinking and it's just so hard to pick one. I mean, there are just so many. But when I think back to my childhood, you know, I grew up close to a lake and the woods backing up to our house. And I think, you know, remembering just the summertime and running down to the lake with a picnic and just, you know, spending the entire day down there swimming, eating, swimming, swimming some more and then eating some more. And, you know, I think that's just the most positive memories that I can think of.

Ginny: I love that because it's so simple. 

Linda: It is.

Ginny: Well, it doesn't have to be more than that. I think for kids, you know, it's  good food, and water, or whatever. That's beautiful. 

Well, I really appreciate your time. I really appreciate your book and all that you're doing and am excited to see what comes next. 

Linda: Thank you for having me, Ginny. It was my pleasure.